Breda Heffernan – Irish Independent 31st May 2010
A SURVIVOR of institutional abuse has criticised in-fighting among victims groups over compensation, warning they are in danger of losing public support.
Paddy Doyle, author of ‘The God Squad’ and a former resident of an industrial school, said leaders of groups appeared to be “self-appointed” rather than elected.
He said this had given rise to feelings of mistrust among some survivors and it was now time for the Government to step in and take the lead in settling outstanding issues such as compensation.
Mr Doyle claimed that money was at the crux of arguments among the survivors’ groups, including how much the religious orders should pay and whether that money should be lodged in a trust fund or given directly to abuse victims.
He cited the example of a meeting between survivors’ groups, the Taoiseach and senior cabinet members in April which descended into name-calling.
“I said at the end of that meeting that I was fearful we were heading for a situation where the abused would become the abusers. That didn’t go down well.”
He said the Government should now take a more hands-on role to ensure that survivors’ interests are paramount.“I think the Government has to step in at this stage and make a hard decision about how you move this thing forward because it’s not going to move forward with people fighting among themselves … that’s doing none of us any good who were in the institutions.
“We were in a situation where the public was very much on our side. I think there’s a real danger we could lose that,” he warned.
Christine Buckley, director of the Aislinn Centre, said a range of groups had “mushroomed” since the apology of then-Taoiseach Bertie Ahern in 1999 and the establishment of the Redress Board. Ms Buckley said the priorities for the Aislinn Centre have always been education and counselling.
She said that some groups had told survivors they could get them an extra €200,000 to €300,000 in the second tranche of compensation and that some people had borrowed from money lenders as a result.
And Ms Buckley said she had been contacted by two separate solicitors who told her they would offer loans to survivors on the back of such assurances.
However, the Taoiseach has said the €110m in extra cash pledged by 16 of the 18 religious orders will be placed in a trust fund and administered by the State.
We need to ask TD’s to vote down the Statutory Fund Bill this will NOT Happen without a FREE VOTE on this!
If you have never sent an email to TD’s before now is the time to urge them to vote down this Bill!
To use a trusted bulk emailer that will send your email to all TD’s Click http://bit.ly/IentBC
interesting to read 2010 posts in 2012! some very really good points raised! infighting within groups is very common and usually organized (setup). what is it with the education thing? how many victims of state and church abuse want to return to school? it was bad enough first time around! as for counselling there may well be some state and church child abuse victims who found the counselling notat all very helpfull. return fares not covered why?. still expected to see cousellors out of pocket.trust funds? trust is a major issue for most if not everybody victimized by the state and the church. trust has to be earned not dictated. records “missing”. why? because evidence of child abuse? information that if came to light might change a claim? claimants (Redress Board) might well feel injustice has been done if information comes to light after they accept an offer of compensation. some counsellors would not have been accepted by the government why? the media and the press seems to be strangely silent and not behind the victims of state and church abuse. paid survivors running groups is a non starter. divide and rule. them and us. set up. people lets not forget that Irish political parties are to blame. they were involved in this holocaust. they are still involved in this holocaust. they are involved in the coverup of child abuse crimes. it has been going on for many decades and the guilty party still get voted in power! consider a timeline. which political party was in power at the time you were abused? which political party was in opposition at the time you were abused? same media as today? same press as today? when will society wake up to it’s head in the sand as to the child abuse going on? the rejection was suffered long past sentence (prison). why should victims of state and church child abuse be forced to fight for justice and fair awards (compensation)? people get far more money for hurt feelings in the work place or because they think they were overlooked for promotion on account their looks! society owes us big time. government (political) party of the day (in office) has a duty to bring these crimes into the light and see to it justice is absolute and no victim further victimized. the department of education is guilty.it has no business dictating to it’s victims now. nor has the department of health either. records destroyed deliberately. evidence of systematic child abuse.
Christine West (Mrs Buckley) You have kissed the hands that beat and tortured children, You have kissed the feet of those who Kicked children, you have silenced those who were in Goldenbridge the same years as you, You have gladly taken the gold from the abusers, You have distroyed any chance the REAL victims had of trying to get justice, I hope you are proud of yourself all the way to your bank.
I as a Survivor of an Industrial Reformatory throught the whole of the 1950’s have Never had any Surport whatever from any of those so called services, and am sure I never will. Paddy those Groups are a disgrace especially The Aislinn and That place that was in Cork.No Government Dept especially The Dept of Education nor those groups should Not be allowed to be anywhere Survivors.They are all Corupt Con merchants who never gave a fiddlers fart about the Survivors. Happy New Year to all Survivors.
are these support groups giving account of who there supposed to be supporting as of todays date 15th june 2010 and what they have been doing with the goverment funding . appart from dinners with the irish president
also we all must email brian cowen directly demanding a ballot on what should be done with the funds given by C O R I . WILL HE GET OUR VOTE OF CONFIDENCE
the public who knew about what was going on in these schools did nothing
the government knew and did nothing
the religious punished children who complained.
now it is in the open they still do nothing
all got off cheaply as usual as a result of trickery at the expense of our ignorance in politics, law, religion, and the social structure of the day.
we were ill advised thinking we were going to be treated fairly.
there are no morals here only lies lies lies and more lies.
we were suckered into accepting anything so far by trickery of the most powerful minds of the country.
NOW EVERYONE KNOWS BUT DID THEY REALLY CARE?
the government stole our compensation from the religious the people still worship the religious and the people are tired of us though we never got the opportunity to speak, only the groups who were set up and paid to feed the media the most tiring story of all the heads of the church, notice the heads of the government who also knew are not on the list even though they like the priests have got away thanks to the groupies.
no political figure was mentioned to resign.
DO YOU MEAN TO TELL ME IT WAS NOT THEIR JOB TO LOOK AFTER THE WELFARE OF THE CHILDREN?
Corneilius
I too would like to see informed Government, but this will never happen.
Until 2000, I believed if I presented the facts (how many adults were abused as children) and the consequences of childhood abuse, Governments worldwide would do something. I was wrong!
Governments are all about business, and the men and women in it are driven by the logic side of the brain. The right side of the brain (emotional side) has dried up among politicians. Empathy does not make money. People who suffer are only a burden.
Scientific evidence from around the world, that prove how the childhood abused suffers a life time (physically and psychologically) has no bearing in political decision.
Even the latest book: “The Lived Experience of Violation: How Abused Children Become Unhealthy Adults”
by: Anna Luise Kirkengen – Translated from Norwegian by Eugenie Sommer Shaw, is ignored again.
Every Government needs people they can control and oppress. Nothing is easier to control than the one in pain.
The only action we can take is, get rid of politicians who don’t care about human rights and refuse to work with scientific evidence.
Sieglinde
I do understand the issue regarding money. So many people in real need. Those needs must be met, and can be met. The Vatican’s coffers are full. The Government has borrowed billions, much of it wasted on futile projects and a bloated bureaucracy. There is money to spare.
Yet the money is not enough.
I need to KNOW that abuse and mistreatment and adverse control of children is understood and taken seriously by the entire community.
I need to KNOW that the history of ‘poisonous pedagogy’ is fully revealed and exposed for what it is, and for how deeply it is embedded within our society, even to this day.
I need to hear and see that the work of people like Alice Miller, John Holt, John Taylor Gatto, David Smail and many others on child development, deprivation and the roots of violence is taken seriously, not least by the people, the parents of today and the children, who will be the parents of tomorrow.
An informed public is the best and only guarantor of a decent Governance.
This abuse that we have survived, that we are witness to, that we have been revealing is a trans generational trauma pattern, that undergoes ‘reforms’ that merely tinker yet leave the fundamentals power relationships between children and adults in place, power relationships that are replicated between Governments and the people they ‘rule’ (which means ‘control’).
This pattern of trauma absolutely is endemic in so many subtle and not so subtle ways in our society. It is so not healthy.
I for one have dedicated my life to making this awareness more widespread within my own community here in London, where I ran away to over 30 years ago, because the pain of living in Ireland, of seeing the trauma in others eyes behind the masking of the pain that occurs as the hurt attempt to ‘fit in’.
I have struggled with my own history for most of my life, as most of us have and still do. We were not born for this.
I have seen that awareness work wonders with parents and children. It appals me that Governments ignore the very fine work I have mentioned above. And I know they do, because these various researchers and workers HAVE informed Governments, Health Departments and more down the years.
the meeting at the dept education yesterday 10th did post to this site on the 8th was not posted! alot of digging about in eire and here ! along with bernadette cook ,to try to get info back to survivors that they have a right to know !!
hello doris what information, and once again how did you manage that
Well if you count that 200million each survivor will receive about 20,000 euro… still not much for a big family.
NO WORRIES GUYS I GOT THE INFORMATION I NEEDED
Yes the Church have a GOD GIVEN DUTY to help putting the pieces back.
If they dont, iam sure there God will have questions for them when its their day to meet him!!.
If i was in power within the religious orders i would strongly think of bringing their empire back to ground level. Just have a basic living, no assets , very little money. Do my best to help with what they have destroyed. Start from scratch and build a new future a better future.
That way, Man and God would look upon the church and forgive there evil crimes.
well said dorris ! i did state this weeks ago but no one acted ! we as survivors need to have a big voice very big, power in numbers ,devided we fall ! that is very clear to see ! what about the further 200million that the goverment is after to build a childrens hospital ? i have this in black and white from cori ! that makes 310 million we have no need for a childrens hospital as we are now grown up! the money was put in for us so it should come to us simple ! not rocket science ! the church is worth billions so let them pay for their sins , instead of prolonging our suffering and let us as survivors get on with what is left of our lives in peace and do as we wish for a change trust fund would you trust these
people ? no ! an independent outsider should head all meetings uk and ireland and stop all paid survivors from running groups ! and see how long they stay around !
maybe with a bit of luck they will all disappear into the woodwork for good!enough is enough i will fight my cause myself and for anyone else who needs help but i will pay my own way and wont be taking what should be coming to all of us .compo .
INDEED KEN IT IS AN INSULT 8;OOO EUROS. WHY THE HELL SHOULD WE ACCEPT ANYTHING LESS THAN WHAT WE WERE PROMISED. 300,000 EUROS AND NO LESS THE MONEY WAS PUT IN THE POT FOR ALL SURVIVORS NOT GROUP LEADERS TO PUT IN THEIR BACK POCKETS AS THEY ALL HAVE GONE FOR YEARS. PADDY IF THE GOVERNMENT IS WATCHING THIS SITE WHY ARE THEY NOT TAKING ANY NOTICE OF WHAT WE WANT NO TO THE TRUST FUND YES IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE STRUGGLING HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO WORK FOR YEARS BECAUSE OF THE TRAUMATIC TIME I SPENT IN THE INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL.WE ALL DESERVE SOME PEACE THROUGH FINANCIAL HELP.IF YOU SAW THE WAY SOME OF THE GROUP LEADERS LIVED YOU WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY SICKENED.TIME TO ACT NOW .BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT GOES TO SUMMER RECESS AND WE ARE FORGOTTEN AGAIN…….ACT NOW WRITE TO BRIAN COWAN NOW INDIVIDUALLY TAKE IT INTO YOUR OWN HANDS IT IS OUR MONEY AFTER ALL. IT ONLY COSTS THE PRICE OF A STAMP. IF NOBODY WANTS TO HELP US WE HAVE TO HELP OURSELVES.
Again, Compo is a means to help families build a brighter future, a better future.
ken
Paddy. While I was present at a meeting in Wexford, numbers of around 13,000-14,000 people was stated by the chairman. Paddy, my calculation is based on a conservative estimate of 13,000 people. If you are correct in saying that if 15,000 people are still with us today, this figure will be less. In this case 7,333 euro per person (or should I say per family) would be a more accurate figure.
I am sure that money might be OK for some individuals.
What I am trying to say is that. Think of survivors that have 3+ children and 5+ grandchildren (or what ever number of children)that need some help in life. With counselling, education or other services or activities. Or even to pay off some bills. How is, lets say 8,000euro per family going to help them?
Paddy, to me that just don’t work.
As I have stated before the damage that was inflicted by the religious orders at that time was, is and will have an effect on families for generations to come.
In my opinion that amount of money, or should i say help to put lives back together, is an insult. I stress the point HELP, as I see “compo” a means to Help survivors and their families put the pieces back together. I have told my father that if I was him, I wouldn’t except that money.
By the way Paddy, I have to say thanks on your voice in the paper, much appreciated.
Ken
Ken, Can you explain for the benefit of people who visit this site, how precisely you’ve arrived at this figure. I know it has been contradicted elsewhere in the comments. Just for the record, as far as I know, the number of people who have gone to the Redress Board is closer to 15,000 with more to come. If your figure of 8,461 Euro is correct for 13,000 then the amount available for an additional 2000 plus people will be much lower. Paddy.
8,461euro in total for survivors, their families and their grandchildren s future!!
110million split between 13,000 survivors equals 8461 euro. Are people happy with that??
Hello sieglinde nice to meet you on this site. We do understand how you feel . All we can do is to describe our thoughts and feelings. Leave signs everywhere you can because all of this will be revisited by history. when that day comes they will not be able to ignore your signs. I wish you well don’t give up . its for the future
Paddy,
In Germany we have the same problem.
Self-appointed speakers with little knowledge or empathy for others assumed leadership over 800 000 institution victims. Self centered, they like to dictate what others need. Their reckless and short sided attitude brought us nothing but a bad reputation.
A few victims worked hard to present the enormous scale of human rights violation to the government, without prevail. Even they were attract by too many brainless formal institutionalized.
On top of all this, solicitors with a tarnished reputation used the opportunity call themselves representative of victims. All they really want is their name in print and get back in the game of money making.
The media had their fill of headlines – that’s it.
The government is happy about the discourse among the victims and sees it as a signal to take control – by doing nothing for the victims.
We in Germany are back were we began. At the time, we were children second class they could shamelessly abuse and now we are adult second class who deserve nothing.
Nothing has changed.
The churches continue business as usual and the Germany government is happy – no recognition – no public apology and nobody got a penny.
Sieglinde
does anyone know a solicitor who we are still able to trust . I’m afraid they make me feel very unsure of myself . And it has taken me years to get over standing on a landing , while invisible people decided what I was worth to them
Well said Granny.. .. Question…How many of us were held in those industrial schools for longer than the courts sentenced us …was the sentence extended at some time? If so, why? I sure would like to know.(in my case it was 2yr extension.)
can i just say something to the above woman..you no i stand with you on your views and along with you i hope we get real justice..just putting that aside for now can i just say how touched i was by your posts..you seemed to have gone to hell and back and suffered far worse than i did.i wouldn’t mind not getting a penny if people like your self were awarded what you should have got..you sound in great need and il pray for you if thats ok with you and il pray that this will come to a end for people like yourself whos sick and in need of support..god bless you..patrickxx
Is anyone good at maths ?£110 million . how many of us victims?are there to get our proper share?of that, The Government have NO right to any of that money.we Victims suffered and worked hard in those Child Prisons and deserve that money .Each case is different there were those who were Sentenced by the courts as babies and young children were forced to live 24 hours a day with terrible abusers until they reached 16 having been given a criminal record they really suffered, if they lived that long. usually sent out into some godforsaken place out in the country abused and forgotten until they reached the age of 6 to 10 years to then be transported to hellholes like Artane fairyhouse, Glin, ect to suffer further shocking abuse psysicaly and sexually and mentally >Then there was those who mitched off school as young teenagers sent to places like Artane,then there was those who were sent to places like Goldenbridge from the late 60’s it was different place then. All cases are different.survivors of all ages from all these places should recieve from £300,000 To £500,000 each. we can never have our lost childhoods back.
Our rights to compansation must be fortcoming and paid into each victims own bank account.
Mrs Buckley has made a fortune doing the dirty work for her employers, the very people the rest of us survivors are trying to get proper justice from.she is only for herself she’s let the power go to her head forgetting the real victims 99 per cent of us who suffered in Goldenbridge many of us really were made to suffer inhuman Brutal beatings and terrible punishments ,starvation diet barly enough JUST to keep us alive ,,lacked warm clothing,No Heating in the child prison, We were hard worked and nearly beaten to death.because we were born, Mr Buckley had a chance she was sent to the outside school for the later part of her time in Goldenbridge and later college did anyone else get the chance to go on to college >NO PAID to each Survivor into our own bank accounts <JUST LIKE THE AMERICANS ,or anyone else in the world who is awarded compansation The whole CON was worked out from the start to silence and get rid of the victims The Redress should have come After the Ryan Report by LAW.We were NOT given any advice at all. NOONE wanted to hear us ,See us,or talk with us , They just wanted us all to VANISH.
more games…someones just trying to confuse the matter that bit more with this latest stunt ..i for one am going back to my legal team and il fight it with or with out any groups support.its all right for c buckley to MAKE HER COMMENTS ..SHES BEEN WELL LOOKED AFTER MONEY WISE…a word to all survivors dont let anyone make you feel bad for wanting more money. as the truth is we where all ripped off at the redress board and where well within are rights to ask for more..dont let anyone send you on a guilt trip…
This becomes even more difficult to follow for those of us(Artane survivor) that now live somewhere other than Ireland. There is very little to keep us updated in the regular news so thank heavens for this website or I would really not know what was going on.
Over the last year, I have been diagnosed with cancer and I no longer can work.
It goes through my mind- will I ever live long enough to see the money owed to us made available. No education funds could ever help me at this point. I need access to my money to be able to live and maybe get better treatment for my cancer.
Trust Fund – sounds like a trick answer…
i.e Trust whom?
I am sure the current and future governments of Ireland will deal with this in an open and transparent form as they have with all issues relating to this issue.
I am also convinced (NOT) that the levels of overheads in administering this, say similar to those enjoyed by the recent investigative Commission etc. might apply.
It would be good to find out what levels of overheads are normal for managing trusts, then see how this will compare.
Costs of setting up… legal costs, administrative costs, annual accounting procedures of course, will all be met each and every year.
I assume that balance from the interest from (Investment in toxic funds, no doubt) and I am sure you may end up with “NADA” to distribute to individuals.
But then, you will only be able to establish that after the “deed” has been done.. so to speak.
MM
Christine Buckley you may feel you are doing us justice with the educational and counselling funds, but you are doing nothing for us survivors at all. you have forgotten we all have different needs. just as we were children our needs were different and those needs were never, never met. we were left to unqualified religious fanatics of abuse who destroyed thousands of promising young lives.
the education and counselling funds you stand for ONLY are a JOKE.
I got told by a group you cannot claim for the educational funds, if you got the usual grant from the state as everyone else out there. VERY VERY CONFUSING INDEED.
plus I had to pay for my own travelling fees to see my counsellor, because the community welfare office said I had sufficient savings guess what those saving were?
again the group did nothing.
THESE GROUPS ARE A WASTE OF TAXPAYERS MONEY WHO PAID ONCE AGAIN FOR SURVIVORS AS THEY DID WHEN SURVIVORS WERE CHILDREN BACK THEN, WHO NEVER RECEIVED THE PROPER SUPPORT THAT WAS PAID BY THE TAXPAYER.
TO HAVE PROPER SUPPORT OUR NEEDS HAVE TO BE SEEN TO BE MET NOW
So The State who along with the religous congregations, were responsible for the appalling abuse of children in instutions, now decide on how compensation should be handled.. a fund administered by The State? To my mind that is ABUSE all over again. Most victims will never benefit from such.
Personally, I feel it’s a mistake to put peoples monies in a “trust fund”. That just means they can’t get it out when needed or must beg the state for it.
IS THIS THE ANSWER WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR .WHAT IS THE TRUST FUND FOR SINCE ITS UP TO THE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT SOCIETY FROM ABUSERS NOW . THEY NOW KNOW THE DANGER OF LETTING OTHERS TAKE OVER . IN THE FUTURE THEY SHOULD EACH BE RESPONSIBLE . AS FOR EDUCATION I HAVE STUDIED HUMAN NATURE FOR SO LONG NOW . I HAVE HAD MORE THAN I NEED. WHY WAS THIS NOT KNOWN TO US
Paddy. can we really trust the Governemnt ministers considering they colluded with the church in getting rid of the disposable children from the sight of the public.
Being poor or orphaned does not make one a criminal.
We cannot trust the judiciary here in ireland because they knew the truth too abd rubberstamped the disposable children into state care.
We, the people paid to keep the disposable children out of sight too, so we cannot be involved either.
Personally, i do not think any Irish person should be in charge as emotions always get in the way, and the patriarchal church and Government know this from theit behaviour research.
This abuse issue needs a second Nuremburg.
If people look very closely at the situation now, it has all the traits of some shit stirrer causing trouble among the groups. Stand back, observe and you will see him or her clearly.
I feel Paddy and Sinead should have more media attention to bring all the truth to light, as we aint seen anything yet.