Mark Hilliard
A COMPREHENSIVE survey of Irish survivors of religious institutional abuse living in the UK has exposed the damage caused to their lives decades after they fled the country.
Social housing, medical help, counselling and even pensions legitimised by child labour from the age of 12 are among the list of things survivors believe should be funded by financial contributions from religious orders.
It is believed that around one third of all abuse survivors, some 4,800 of the total respondents to the Redress Board, now live in the UK. Many want help to come home, others say they could never come back.
“I would like to visit my dad in Ireland [but] I could never live there again,” said one respondent who took part in the survey carried out by the Irish Women’s Survivor Support Network (IWSSN).
Another wrote: “I cannot return to Ireland… it’s too damaging.”
The survey was designed to address the needs of a substantial amount of abuse survivors who live outside the country and would therefore be outside the financial framework of the Statutory Fund when it is eventually administered. “It is very important to ensure that survivors in the UK have the chance to state their views,” said Sally Mulready, a British Labour politician and support worker based in London.
Some 122 detailed surveys were returned from a total of 383 distributed, representing 32% of the sample, a higher-than-average return for such research.
Among the findings, the IWSSN found that one third said they still required funding for counselling, 36% asked for assistance in returning home, 20% requested further educational support for family members and 76% asked that pensions be provided to those forced into child labour.
“Survivors started work at 12 years or older but we ended up with no pensions,” noted one respondent.
A large majority felt that the fund should apply to those who had been placed in laundries, a group excluded from the Redress Act 2001.
More than 22% said they were receiving ongoing therapy.
Of those, 44% have been receiving treatment for up to 10 years and 7% for even longer.
Nearly half categorise themselves as disabled, 62% of whom say they need further help with mental health needs.
Accommodation requirements also featured strongly in the findings. Nearly half of those in the sample were in social housing and a quarter said they would welcome financial assistance to return to Ireland.
October 31, 2010
No one can get ove thier own life. warped by bullys its impossable to be any other way. when people say get over it thier real meaning is stop talking to me about your life. we all have our childhood memories. yours are part of you.but in public ours come out as if we were being rude.thats part of it too as it effects every part of us including the embarrased family. we are old children because many live in a state of shock caused by a long ago memory.
Oh Kathleen, I thought that I was reading myself then, I am 71 and I am still scared of people. I also cry a lot, They have done so much damage to us Kathleen, and most people tell me to get over it. 25 years in two catholic church orphanages in New Zealand from 4months to 25years old. I don’t go our, my house is my prison. If any one ones to see us, I leave my husband to do all the talking. They took my every being and made me into what they wanted me to me, I was their slave from the age of 5years old until I left at 25years of age. no life even today. Thank you Kathleen you take care and keep safe. Ann
I was in st aloysius ind school from age three to fourteen .i have never lived a full life always frightened and scared even now at the age of sixty five .i still feel like that child ,can’t cope when I’m in trouble I sit and cry I feel I have never had the chance to grow up
Margaret. The first step for you should be to go to the police and report the abuse to the police. It’s not easy but it is something you should consider. I’ve written an autobiography THE GOD SQUAD, it wasn’t easy going but I got there in the end and the rest as is often said, is history. To put a claim into the Health Board, now known as the Health Services Executive (HSE) it is important to make them aware of the abuse you endured. Please don’t think I’m trying to preach to you, I’m not. Just trying to be helpful. Good luck with the writing, it’s not easy going but it can be done. Paddy.
l am a survivor of sexual abuse in a home in Ireland several years ago and have never lived a proper life since… l am now thinking about writing my own autobiography and getting it published but for some reason l am taking my time and scared of the outcome… l want to also put a claim into the Healthboard where l was abused but l don’t know how to g about it… Please if anyone has information on how to do this, l would be grateful to recieve it.
If the Government paid survivors our rightful compansation We would be able to BUY our own homes in Ireland ,I am sure that’s what most victims WANT. It’s what I want.
Hi Paddy,
Just wanted to let you know about the on going grievances with the commitment which we were all put under to do with the Nazareth house order of nuns = Poor Sisters of Nazareth.
The main general breaches of the agreement are in relations to:
Luck of financial accountability:
Lack of independence from the Nun’s order of the Bursar and the Commitment Committee:
And the main breaches of the agreement reached, are around the declining the applications that meet the criteria in the main agreement in relation to stuff, we really need. these were identified as including:
Counselling from qualified professionals:
Medical assistance:
Privation due to poverty: and
Further education.
All people on the commitment committee are picked by the nuns and also, one nun is on the committee, all the time. This should be independent of the nuns, their lawyers and they friends. Ann
hello SALLYwell its nice to hear that you all have a good time at the camden town place. there is something very challenging about your comments. what have we done these past ten years. well most of us have struggled along with our lives. the message that comes over is that you would like the irish centre to continue as it is . well why not . but imagine that we took you up on your words. there would be people from all over the world turning up at the meetings in camden town. where would we all stay. would we all fit in .we all have different needs . you dont have to justify yourself. thats you with yourself. i at no time saw any comments that were insulting to you . but if people like angry want to defend you at least he could respect us and our mini brains. by the way does angry talk like that normally
A dear friend said to me very recently, that I did not have to justify myself to anyone. I take that advice and I certainly don’t intend to do so ever again.
So Without any political crap as someone so in elegantly put it here is my reply. Apologies to those who are reading this information for the umpteenth time.
There is no ‘outreach worker for the London Women’s Group’. The Group does not have any employed staff. At our AGM 2010 we elected five individuals who help run the Women’s Group.
The London Irish Survivors Outreach Services (LISOIS) is completely different from a Women’s Support Group, and has two staff and offers a professional advice and support Service to any Survivor seeking their advice.
It was established in 2001 with a similar Service in Manchester, Coventry, and previously in Sheffield and Haringey. In the past ten years , establishing professional Outreach Services has been one of the achievements I am very proud of setting up. These Services have reached over 4800 individuals. Not a figure from my head, not ‘political crap’-but evidence, facts.
These Services are funded by the Dept of Education who, if you ask them, they can tell you how much funding was received to meet the cost of running a professional Service. The London Office, serving a huge Region has two staff! This information is a matter of public record.
Why male Survivors are left out of a Women’s Meeting?
I should have thought it was obvious. It’s a Women’s Group. The purpose of the Women’s Group is to give Women a chance to meet, share company and talk. No more then that
However, the Women’s Group on Saturday November 22nd also joined up with the Mixed Group. There were several contributions from men and some of them were very good. We have worked together three or four times this year already.
The Women’s Group was established ten years ago again by me (another thing I have done in past ten yeas) and it was done in response to the demand from Women at that time. Three or four times since we have asked Women do they still want these Women’s Group to continue? Answer each time, yes, yes, yes they do. FACTS not political crap…facts.
As Women we offer support to each other and to talk about our lives not just as Survivors but as Women and as emigrants often living quite isolated lives in different parts of Britain. It is a very popular well supported Group and Women look forward to the positive experience of companionship and friendship they get for the Group.
Our meetings are OPEN TO EVERY WOMAN SURVIVOR they are good humored meetings and when I can , the meetings are underpinned with good solid and reliable information from me. Another fact! We often have guest Speakers, we have a small health programmed going on throughout the meeting. If you live in the UK come and see for yourself.
The Women’s Group is knocked by people all the time – but thankfully not by many and most of my men friends and the partners and sons of the Women involved do understand women do need time together. But of course it’s not everyone’s cup of tea. Women who attend love the meetings. If it’s not for you that is fine too.
More then half of the Women are involved in other Groups, as they are in Manchester and Coventry. There is no competition between Groups here. People are absolutely their own masters-free to go wherever they wish. If the Women’s Group is not for you that does not mean we should not have one.
Leaving husband or partners outside- well yes, it’s a Women’s Group. We do have one or two partners who always come and always wait outside but they bring something to read or they talk to other guys outside and when we are having tea etc they are welcomed in.
If you don’t want to leave your husband outside that’s fine too- (a bit rare) as Christy Moore says’ ‘everyone needs a break ‘ but we are all different. I love attending the Women’s Group and enjoy the company of fellow Women its good for the soul every now and then and we have a good laugh.
On a serious note, Some women have partners/husbands who engage in serious domestic violence (not always physical) While others put up with partners/husbands who bring them down. They love and need the Women’s Group. Facts .I have seen the benefits with my own eyes.
I don’t see any political crap in that!
Where have I been? Where have you been? Busy no doubt like all of us, busy getting on with our lives, rearing our children, working, all the normal things of life.
BUT, and a lot of it is on record, I have actually been very involved in a whole Varity of things and causes in my life. Championing the cause of ensuring that we get justice, that we are recognized and supported has been just one .I have written a book about the wrongful imprisonment for 16 years of six innocent Irish men.
Look it up Cruel Fate , by Saly Mulready and Hugh Callaghan. Published by University of Mass. Press in Boston and by Poolbeg Dublin .
I have been a Labour councilor for twelve years. I am a career for a 90 year old relative. I run an Advice Service since 1994 for elderly Irish people based at the London Irish Centre – nothing to do with the Outreach Services. It’s a registered Charity-look it up.
Yes and lots and lots more besides. Also gave evidence to te Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse , now so conveniently called the Ryan Commission. The full title being too long for most lazy journalists to write.
That no one has heard of me, well that’s not my problem. I did not say I was working in the background, someone who knows me said it for me.
People have different ways of going about things. Running to the media every couple of weeks, thumping and bawling out ones views to any tin pot journalist who will listen, is not my way of doing things.
I have watched so called Survivors Leaders run to the media and become sucked into getting publicity . It goes to their heads. It is not only embarrassing to watch, its degrading and has degraded our cause and our right to justice.
Yes, I do give interviews, write articles and speak to the media when it is useful to do so. I did Drivetime on RTE a couple of time and as recent as a few weeks ago following the IHRC Report on Laundry Women. I’ve done Woman’s Hour, Law in Action and frequently write and give interviews in the Irish Post Newspaper and lots more but only if its useful.
Frankly I don’t really care that you or others don’t know me or what I have done over ten years. Be assured I have done my bit over the past ten years with volumes of evidence to show for it. Its not important what people know or don’t know –its not important that I am not well known . It is what you do that counts.
I don’t regard myself as a ‘Survivors Leader’ nor do I feel I have any need to get your or anyone else’s approval or endorsement for my actions. I do what I do because I believe we have not had a fair and just settlement and because I also am determined to fight for as long as it takes for the Laundry Women to get justice. I have good negotiating skills and I am putting them or trying to put them to good use.
Having said all that I would love others to share on Paddy’s site what all of you have done in past ten years to advance and support the demands for justice for all. I am not really loooking for personal stories of struggle. Actually in our own way we have all struggled. Its whatyou do for the greater good for fellow Survivors that would be good to hear.
It would be indeed fascinating to find out other peoples work, other peoples struggles. I feel I could learn something from your experiences .
But as I started off saying, I do not have to justify myself to you
Or even explain what I do. I don’t intend to.
Since sally is part of all thats been going on for the past 10 years of course we ask questions about what has been achieved. Angry there is nothing personal that could offend her or you . As for most of the comments thay are clear in what thay say . many of us had never even heard of Sally. her reputation as a tigress in the cause of survivers is new news to us . how do you explain this.its not about politices. the past is there. thats all we can measure from. She has her positions in all this and we have ours. Do you think you need education . i dont
Hi Paddy, there’s no need to remove it on my account, but I really do appreciate your offer to do so, Many Thanks Kay
Angry your post was (is) a tad lengthy but brilliantly written. I am so glad to see Mrs Sally Mulready get some support, rightly deserved, and from someone who was actually at a meeting in which she took part. You will have heard from Sally what I have being trying to say for many years. She really does have the interests of survivors at heart and is totally dedicated to doing whatever she can to help and assist survivors. Sally does not gain financially, unlike some group leaders, only satisfaction that she is doing something worthwhile.
Kay found one of your comments offensive. On the contrary, and as a survivor myself, I thought you were spot on. I personally don’t have a problem ‘about ordinary folk giving an opinion in an honest, unpretentious and straight forward way.’ The problem I have is that some of those very same people are very quick to belittle Mrs Mulready at every opportunity whilst not doing anything positive themselves.
Mrs Dowling I will tell you where Mrs Mulready has been for the past ten years. She has travelled the length and breath of UK, not to mention the many times to Dublin, to hold meetings with survivors and governments ministers. Far from working in the background, Mrs Mulready has been up front and always on hand to offer advice. I am sorry that you experienced your husband having to miss a meeting that was intended for women survivors. But Angry attended a meeting on Saturday with the ‘mixed’ group. So there are other options.
Paddy I apologise if I appear to be having a go at other users on your site but as I personally know how hard Sally works it kind of gets my back up when I read deflating comments from people who have never personally met her yet continue to question what she does as if she has to justify herself.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”! Sir Walter Scott.
I’ve said it many times: comments that are insulting or disparaging will NOT be published on this site. If is a forum for discussion and not a site for ‘mud slinging’. I’m sure there are other sites that will facilitate that sort of ‘carry on’. It it’s your wish Kay to have the offending comment removed, I will do just that. Paddy.
The article in today’s Independant about two people, a man and a woman, who were abused as children, by one man, in their home town of Kilkenny, make’s for interesting reading.
They each were awarded close to three quarter million euro’s by the High Court. Fair financial redress for what they suffered.
My point here , does this not contrast very much with the pittance award’s that folk were awarded at the RIRB? Especially, when you remember that in their handbook, the RIRB, indicated that all claim’s would be settled on a par with High Court AWARD’S!
The only real beneficiary’s were the Legal People, and they were never
abused! Or suffered like the folk they got rich on!
The RIRB were clearly guilty of adding insult to injury!
Jimmy.
mrs mulready can you please tell me who is the outreach worker for the londons womans group if it is not you ?
why are the male survivors left out ,surely they need support as well as the women? why do THEYhave to be segregated.
IF I went to one of your meetings i would not put up with my husband being left outside while i was in the meetings as i know this has happened .
where have YOU been for the past ten years .[working in the background ] i dont think so mrs mulready
if that was the case this would certainly have been resolved.
i want no political crap just plain answers .thank you.
Mr/Mrs Angry
Re your comment -“these lack lustre contributors whose autonomy of thought is strictly limited, mainly negligible, and just bordering on the threshold of active consciousness”
This comment to me is by far the most offensive comment on this thread, you are talking about ordinary folk giving an opinion in an honest, unpretentious and straight forward way
Your comment in my opinion is hypocritical and reeks of Intellectual snobbery!
.
If there is even a scrap of information you can give me with regard to the Trust Fund in New Zealand, please don’t hesitate to pass it on. We need all the preparation we can get to beat off ALL government parties – they’ve all agreed to push the statutory fund through irrespective of what the people who were abused while in the care of religious orders and the State think. This just cannot be allowed to happen.
Thanks for your faith in me!
Paddy.
On Saturday I went to the “mixed” meeting at the Irish Centre located here in Camden Town. I was after clarification in regard to this “trust fund”, so as to produce, or even understand a self determined issue from the given and ultimately, expert analysis delivered by Sally Mulready. I had followed the thread here on Paddys site for some time, I was interested in what Sally Mulready had to say, her unmitigated stance here in recent weeks in attempting to appease and even enlighten particular people to her involvment in this “trust fund” gave me cause for concern in regard to particular individuals who did NOT want to understand Sally Mulreadys tigress like quality to fight inequality and grave INJUSTICES for survivors of the Irish gulags. Having myself been a “victim” of a “group leader” who I utterly and totally believed in for some SEVEN years, let me assure you, I look “TWICE” at people who purport to “represent” survivors, I look twice, three times and even maybe more , but on Saturday I must say I met more decent people and heard more TRUTH in one HOUR than I`ve heard from some of these “group leaders” over the past ten years.
In Sally Mulready I have found someone I can talk to, someone with a PROVEN RECORD who , in the face of Injustice “ DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH”, a great orator with incisor like comprehension, great insight , the ability to listen and then ACTS. Sally Mulready lives in the REAL world, our world, and the sooner that`s realized by some of these lack lustre contributors whose autonomy of thought is strictly limited, mainly negligible, and just bordering on the threshold of active consciousness. For some time now I have watched and read with utter AMAZEMENT the contempt with which Sally Mulreadys full blown explanation of not only her life style, her involvement with the Irish Elders charity which has NOTHING to do with any survivor oriented group, and the time she devotes to EMPOWERING those incapable of speaking for themselves, I find it a TRAVESTY that people on here continue to “hurl stones”, but do remember, people in glass houses..?????
I would seriously urge ANY survivor who is , was, or utterly disgusted with what passed for meetings with “group leaders” here in the UK, throw of your yoke and attend one of these meetings of survivors at the Irish Centre here in Camden town.
For many survivors of the Irish gulags their PAIN laden journey began by appearing in front of what passed for magistrates in the Ireland of the `30, s `40`s and `50`s, lunatics of an urban and rural disposition so removed from REALITY that on the “advice” of the local parish priest they !TRIED! Babies, children as young as TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE, SIX, SEVEN, sentencing these babies and children to anything from FOURTREEN YEARS OF IMPRISONMENT. Another aspect of this fact is that in such “societies” relativity is stressed rather than individual freedom ( ah, sure now, `tis a great place that we`re sending ye to now, we need someone now to pick the tatties begorrah) , indeed, in the earlier stages of a babies life freedom is almost a meaningless notion. And as we`ve seen in Ireland whatever is NOT the outcome of “inherited relativity” the church through its imposing of co-ordination of action, brought sheer destructive chaos. Its as a DIRECT result of this CHAOS that so many of us suffered the “relative values” of this church and its lower class, crass ignorant sub-ordinate, subservient lackeys. Many “group leaders” have displayed these VERY SAME VALUES used by the religious orders, greed and ignorance, coupled with lies, deceit and TREACHERY to mention a few, hence HOW REFRESHING IT WAS TO MEET A BREATH OF FRESH AIR IN THE SHAPE OF SALLY MULREADY.
People need to get their act together, if this “trust” is to be halted then its HEAVYWEIGHTS like Sally Mulready we need.
Angry.
15:01, Nov 22, Ann Thompson, New Zealand
I was in two catholic church orphanages in New Zealand and I totally agree in having Paddy Doyle to represent all Survivors, so we have a voice at all of the meetings, instead of us being a ghost without any say what so ever. It is time that we do have a say at these many meetings which will be soon coming forward, about the Trust fund and the likes and I feel that Paddy Doyle is the right person, to head these meetings and to be our voices, which is so needed at these meetings.
Ann Free Spirit. Ann .
I have put this petition on my face book
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/profile.php?id=1394006921
And also on Catholica, Go here guys and you will see a site that has supported me since 1997
http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?id=60635
Good Luck Puddy and Please do watch that Trust Fund if they put Ireland under it. If you need to know more about it Puddy, I can tell you lots more. Ann
Let’s share with you facts of what took place at the Womens Support Group meeting on Saturday.
There was a very long and good discussion about the proposed STF.
I gave a summary of where things were at – I gave facts as conveyed to me by officers of the RRU and my own work and enquiries at the Dail. and I explained the following;
The STF Bill (Statutory Fund Bill) was currently being considered and that according to an email I received from the Residential Redress Unit, the proposed STF was presently being drafted (as I pointed out many times on this site) and the RRU could not give me a date or roughly when the STF Bill would be discussed in the Dail.It is as we speak being prepared as a draft Bill for the Dail.
I explained to people that though it was not listed for debate yet, in that we do not have a date, it can be done by the Government with just two days notice.
The discussions moved around the urgent need to convey to the Government that huge numbers of people were completely dissatisfied with the proposals as they stand and at the meeting is was agreed that serious negotiations needed to take place.
It was accepted that the STF proposed intentions of meeting the needs of the most vulnerable in our community of survivors and to include the Laundry Women Workers was necessary and had our support.
However many many people feel that the overwhelming levels of distress and poverty experienced by Survivors has got to be recognised and taken account of.
Contributions which suggested a Trust would ‘cost millions’ and Trusts would ‘take all our money’ were mentioned. It was however explained (again) that people on means tested State benefits needed to ensure any future financial support did not impact on their benefits.
There were calls to ‘share the money equally’ but no one knew or could define who it was the ‘congregations ‘findings should be shared amongst. Someone did say ‘where would £110m to be handed over in a five year period would not go very far!
I pointed out that the bill currently being drafted up was a Statutory Trust Fund for the benefit of former residents of Irish Institutions.
No where is there proposals I know of that include Survivors who were not in residential care.
This is not my position and I hope people understand that, it is the current plan of the Government and the Congregations for the STF.
In the light of so many unanswered questions and the fact that our submissions have been accepted but that no discussions of any kind have taken place ,since we made these submissions, that the only sensible course of action was to defer the Bill, withdraw it from the Dail schedule until meaningful and constructive discussions took place.
There was a unanimous vote for the deferral and delay of this proposed STF Bill until further discussions took place it should be withdrawn. .
I did point out that the April meeting with the Taoiseach was an attempt to discuss with us the proposals. It failed to progress.
I suggested we need to seek a meeting with the Labour Party Spokesperson as well as the Minister Coughlin, where we actually sit down and constructively negotiate.
There are acute issues in particular the issue of continuing poverty that so many Survivors endure, and the practicalities of ensuring that those who have long term care needs are properly supported to live independently for the rest of their lives.
But it all came back to who would speak and represent us. A small committee of five people from amongst the people attending the meeting offered to form a delegation that would visit Dublin and insist on our own voice and our own representation.
Our remit is very simple at this stage
TO GET THE STF BILL WITHDRAWN AND TO START PROPER NEGOTIATIONS.
I hope we can rally land unite with people in Ireland for this simple demand and look to people like Paddy that we can work in partnership o take this forward and negotiate a settlement.
We have just a few weeks to do this and if people could rally around this simple call this clear position we can then properly negotiate a settlement.
People need to take this seriously a failure to do so will result in the STF Bill becoming law without having had our opportunity to properly agree what the priorities are.
It is pointless at this stage to just oppose – or to attack the likes of me.. I am speaking with support and trying to get progress… we need action and we need to
Raise our voices.
I support fully the need and indeed the obligation to take care of those who need support for the rest of their lives, including people with long term disabilities as a consequence of childhood experiences. I want to see people with long term mental health needs look after.
I have however listened and been convinced that there are too many Survivors out there living in abject poverty and need our support bad they need the proposed STF Bill to take account of this.
So in order to achieve this we absolutely need to obtain meetings and negotiations with Policy makers including Ministers and serious Opposition Leaders where we can seek to create our priorities and in the end secure proper negotiated settlement.
I no longer can be doing with people who just want to harp attack and who make no useful suggestions beyond looking back and making accusations. Its silly , bitchy, and though you may offend me and people like me trying to make progress you will not advance the arguments and whoopee the STF bill goes through while some of you ladies (not you Pauline) engage in silly point scoring.
We are all in this together; we need unity and not a whole string of individuals just focussing on their own circumstances. We need a united approach-no one is going to get all they ask for but without negotiating nothing will be resolved.
Let’s move forward. Let’s have some unity of purpose –let’s work to have the STF Bill withdrawn pending negotiations. we have one last chance.
That is the essence of what we discussed and agreed at our meeting on Saturday.
OUTREACH SERVICES
The Departure of the LISOS Worker who is being sacked because se is 66 was discussed. Petition drawn up, but as she is appealing this disgraceful discrimination it is not right to go into great discussions here about an individual. Suffice to say the Outreach Worker in London has not gone and moreover the Women’s Group is stronger ten ever and will support her all the way.
Once again , I am not an Outreach Worker and I do not run the Outreach Services.
Baltimore Men told us that the news of a Baltimore Trust is untrue and to their knowledge there is no Trust set up.
The Meeting also agreed to hold the Women’s Group AGM in February 2011 –plenty of notice now for Kathleen , May, Kay and Kathy and any other Women living in the UK who wish to attend. It is in February and OPENS t all Women Survivors living in the UK. You are very welcome to come , take part and hopefully put yourselves forward to get involved in the work of the Women’s Group.
Mandate for Paddy to Represent Survivors
Will all those in favour of Paddy to act as spokesperson please sign petition below
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/mandate-for-paddy-doyle-to-represent-survivors/
Regards to all Kay
Delighted that i could be of some help Pauline, i know what you mean regarding technology, it frightens me to death, but I have overcome a lot, and learning every day, all through trial an error! Turns out to be ok, and my swearing at the pc has reduced this last couple of year’s since I got this thingymajig! Keep strong, and be happy, no surrender!
Jimmy.
thanks Jimmy for the information. its a great help and Iwould love to hear Irish voices even if Iam a bit deaf. but Isuppose its the case for many of us .I AM SURE YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THE BOOK THAT FRIGHTENED ME MOST WAS 1984. BY GOERGE ORWELL. it took me years to get over my fear of tecknowligie
Paulene, hope the above help’s in some way, i just thought of something else that may interest you, as you are on the internet, you can listen to irish radio each day, i know my ex who live’s in Spain, can get it each day.
Again type in your search box on your home page, RTE IE AND CLICK ON IT, WHEN IT OPEN’S, LOOK FOR THE LIVE BOX, CLICK ON IT AND IT BUFFER’S UP AND COME’S ON . It is great company and with new’s view’s etc also listening to the JOE DUFFY LIVE SHOW EACH DAY.
Once you get it , click on your fav’s file, and you will see an option to store and save , then just click on it when it open’s up on your screen, just like you do with the paper’s.
If i can help any more please just ask, if i cant help, im sure there are folk here who can. especially Andrew.
Jimmy.
Pauline, if you type into your search box the name of what newspaper you want to view, it will bring it up,ie, Independant.ie , evening herald .ie , Cork Examener.ie , they will appear in a drop down menu, and you simply click on them, the one you want to see. They are not usually the entire content, but you will get the main headline’s ,new’s etc.
If you have a Fav’s file, you can place and save the title’s of everything you like to see each day. Then once they are stored in your fav’s menu, click on the fav’s icon, and the menu will drop down, go to the site you want to view, and click on it.
That’s how i manage, it work’s good for me, and like you , i am self taught, but
find we learn tru our error’s, as you will no doubt experience. NO SHAME IN BEING A NOVICE, THAT’S FOR SURE, BEAT’S THAT GADGET WE HAD IN THE GULAG’S WITH BEAD’S ON IT!
BUT THEY WERE GOOD FOR PEASHOOTER’S!
GOOD LUCK TO YOU, KEEP STRONG, JIMMY.
as one of the ill informed moanersIwould like to say its not my fault. One of the group leaders gave an answer to questionning about the use of money. Her answer was teachers pets . all the women who were there in her time are over 60 and have done our best to get on with our lives . and yet self elected leaders are apparantly still thinking as if thay were still instutationilised. Its unblievable. And its dangerous. Iam afraid that Irish newspapers are not on sale here . So i cant not keep in contact with whats going on .
You know I had never heard of Sally’s work until i was able to buy myself a computer. then I had to learn to use it. then I had to be lucky enough for some other survivor send me the link to paddy’s site. Even then I don’t always understand as I don’t read the Irish newspapers because they interview the same people over and over again so you see Sally I had no idea about the conditions fixed by the abusers. You say you never received my letter asking for information but you see I did not know who to address so I sent it to the Camden town address. From whom I have received two copies of the same Xmas card. that means I am on their mailing list. when I received the papers for the survey I sent a comment to Paddy’s site suggesting it be put on the site. that would be fairer to everyone on here. We live all over the world. since its supposed to be about us at least these associations should at least know where we are by their lists mailing lists I mean or if we are dead or alive. its awful for family’s to recieve these letters meant for their loved ones.
Sally, the idea of a Ballot ,which i refered to recently, did in fact state, for ALL Survivor’s, and of course all the Folk you mention ,under different heading’s, are Survivor’s, and so should be able to give their view’s.
It is not the first time the idea of a Ballot has been requested, it has in fact been mentioned before.
There are good reason’s for a Ballot, to air all the various point’s we raise, to establish just how many Survivor’s are in fact Member’s of any of the various groups,
to find out how many folk who have Passed on still get mailshot’s from these group’s as Kay experienced recently! This is not only a sad situation, but clearly show’s the group’s are claiming funding for folk they know nothing about! Or care about!
You invited idea’s and comment’s from all who post here, and i am simply saying a Ballot would be a good idea. If there is enough support for the idea, an online Ballot would be a start, but a more in depth written one could be organised by the Government, if they see the merit in it, and if they want to explore whether in fact the funding to all the group’s is justified! Given ,as i previously stated, there are many who are not member’s , many who have passed on, and many that have given up
because of the carry on within some of these group’s!
All the question’s you ask, can be written into the Ballot paper, and the result’s /answer’s would achieve a fair idea to those concerned, like the GOVERNMENT, HSE, THE RELIGIOUS AND THE MANY GROUP’S , the extent of people’s wish’s , and assist with the decision’s that need to be reached.
As regard’s not knowing detail’s of some item’s mentioned on this site, i hold my hand up, and miss certain thing’s, that is down to being not as gifted as some folk with the use of a pc, but reading what i do here, i think that can apply to many here,
the bottom line is , i am only stating my opinion, and feeling’s on certain matter’s, based on my experience, but i would never intentionally try to offend folk. And if i did, i would be the first to apoligise!
Have a nice weekend!
JIMMY.
The idea of a ballot is a good one. Who would be included and who would be left out?
Who will draft the wording of the ballot and how is it to be sent out and returned?. It’s a good idea and I would love to know the result of such a ballot but more I would love to know very specifically who people think should and must be included.
What about the families of loved ones who have died. What about all the hundreds of people excluded from Redress? What about all the people who were abused by the clergy but were not in institutions-all those people referred to in the Murphy Report /Ferns as well. Is it an online ballot?
What will the ballot be asking for or aiming to achieve?
It’s a great idea, so let us know the practical side of it. How can it be achieved?
The other reason I ask this is that I have two or three times now mentioned those who
Were excluded from Redress and asked people do they think the following should be included in the STF.
• Women Laundry Workers -all
• People who were too late to apply for redress
• Bethany House residents (former)
• People excluded because their institutions were not on the Schedule in the Redress Act
• People in Institutions who choose not to go for Redress did not believe in it.
I have had virtually no response to my questions and I would be very interested in peoples views on this. I think there should be of all these Groups of people included.
.
So when we suggest a ballot is it clear (or maybe not) we also mean all these excluded people?
I am surprised that subscribers are only
Now learning that the Congregations laid down conditions in their so called offer letters. If people want to damn others they really do need to keep abreast of events as they happen. Their attacks otherwise come over as they do in this and many other examples as ‘ill informed moans’.
And it seems a subscribers is unaware of the meeting with the Taoiseach and mentions it as if coming across this information for the first time.
This meeting was covered in every Irish Newspaper, it is in PADDY WEBSITE (look at Archives) and I reported on the meeting in writing and at the Women’s Group twice. I also provided every woman present with copies of these widely published minutes of the Taoiseachs meeting.
.Read them. They make interesting reading . You will know what everyone actually said.at that meeting. I have also from time to time commented on this on this website.
As for the Congregations , their letters are published, if they are not available from Paddy’s website, I will gladly post them to anyone who wants them. There is about 12 letters some of them quite pathetically pleading poverty and two Orders actually refused to make any offer.
It is useful to read stuff first and judge armed with first hand information.
Kay.
How cruel . The abused go on to abuse.
These Group Leaders who continue to use Survivors names to feather their own nests should be stopped. I have never been a member of any Group yet not so long ago I received a stamped addressed envelope with a survey report to be returned. I have never given authorisation for my name to be added to any list.
We now learn the Religious have set down conditions as to how the Government manage this Trust on our behalf. This matter has not been debated. This Trust has been doing nothing since JUNE 2009. FOLLOWING A MEETING WITH THE TAOISEACH. It would appear nothing has progressed.
Kathleen O’Malley.
Kay, so Sorry for your loss, and you are not alone, and yes ,it does show without doubt how insensitive these folk are . They have many Survivor’s detail’s, but while they dont give two hoot’s about them, they use these detail’s to secure the funding they get, which is, as you rightly say fraudulent.
That is one of the reason’s why i would like to see all our issue’s being considered , by way of a Ballot, which would enable the Government to see exactly how we would like the matter’s to be addressed, before they make a decision on the STF, and also show the truth regarding the membership these group’s claim to represent.
The fact that many letter’s have been sent out to folk they know nothing about, whether their still alive or not, whether their still member’s or not, or if in fact they were ever member’s in the first place!This clearly show’s that not only are they insulting their fellow Survivor’s, they are guilty of fraud! A case of the Abused, becoming Abuser’s! Simply to enable them to continue milking the system, at any cost!
It is indeed time they were all investigated, and made to account!
Keep Strong
Jimmy.
Hi Jimmy
Re your comment “I know for a fact, that many member’s are now passed on”
My late Husband was one of the very same members you talk about, and even after telling R.O.P this, the letters keep coming, so apart from this being insensitive and very upsetting, its also fraudulent!
Best Regards Kay
Thanks for your response to my last comment Pauline. I agree that it is not all about Sally (and Sally has indeed confirmed this). The point I was trying to make is that Sally has worked endlessly and tiredlesly on behalf of survivors – often taking up much of her time. She is committed and is a great advocate in trying to get survivors what she believes is reightly theirs. Hence the 400 or so surveys she has sent to many individuals. I also filled in one of those surveys.
You mention that the many comments are about the people who have no contact at all with the services offerd by the assosiations. But Sally is offering a service here (as we can read from many of her proposals, submissions, surverys etc) for those who feel isolated and out of touch. There are many on here who are making suggestions and comments about their compassionate feelings about how they have been mistreated, not only when children but the lack of any proper leadership. Unfortunately many so-called Group leaders have let their members down. Some of these members are no better off knowing about what is really going on and feel they haven’t advance, hence the frustration and annoyance. I agree with Kathleen O’Malleys point that all Groups should be audited and that survivors have a right to know where the monies given to them by the government of Ireland.
I also agree with you when you say that “if one out of every hundred or so gets something from all this then even if we have nothing against this its unfair to the other 99.” Now this is where Sally is at loggerheads with the government to ensure that those other 99 are entitled to get something from this. I’m sure that many survivors have written to various departments, even by e-mail, are getting on-where so we must collectively continue to fight our corner, not just for the benifit or ourselves but all concerned. And this is exactely what Sally is doing.
Sally, I fail to understand how you can agree with my comment’s regarding the New ROP outfit, yet talk about sharing information between us, and having exchange visit’s. This is exactly my point, on the strenght of those mailing list’s, they plan to use our name’s, in order to continue to receive the same funding as the last group, and no doubt claim for hotel’s and travel cost’s for the exchange visit’s you refer to. Can you see them paying their own cost’s etc?
The anger over the last few year’s with the various group’s receiving much money , on the back’s of the Member’s they claim to represent, has been well high lighted, but i dont remember seeing any letter or posting in praise of these group’s, and it has become very obvious that they are not on the side of Survivor’s with regard’s to the Goverment’s proposal’s!
Sally you refer to Survivor’s in various countie’s of the UK, but we have fellow victim’s all over the world, as this site of Paddy’s has shown,and they merit as much respect and consideration !
I fully agree that the Folk of Bethany House as well as the Magdalan women shoud merit redress, they are no different to us , all victim’s of the Roman Catholic Church, not to mention the Irish Government.
It is very evident now that many so called support group’s have ulterior motive’s and their own selfish agenda’s, and it is very sad that they have let down very badly the folk they claim to represent.
Every person who suffered at the hand’s of the Religious, fully deserves redress, and sincere apoligy’s, and with the mountain of money, land and property’s contributed by the Religious, the only fair and just way forward is for the Government to to disperse these fund’s to the damaged folk involved.
I for one do not wish to see the new group ROP, or any other new group joining the bandwagon, to continue gaining from the pain’s of genuine Survivor’s, and claiming they represent those on their mailing list’s, many, they have never met, and know nothing about!
If there is one TD in the Government who show’s concern, and accept’s that the Proposed Trust Fund amount’s to further ABUSE, for all the Survivor’s , please step forward and do something about this sad situation. FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL.
Jimmy.
Hi Angela V Hayden
Really sorry to hear of the difficulties you face, thank goodness for family hey!
like you I also believe the effects on families has been immense, Angela I will keep my comment short for now, so I can get the links to you Quickly, Just want to let you, Jimmy, and all, know that Paddy will consider acting as spokesperson for us if given the Mandate to do so.
I refer to the following thread
http://www.paddydoyle.com/%E2%80%98unanswered-questions%E2%80%99-in-abuse-charity%E2%80%99s-finances/
The links for petitions are as follows
http://shameofireland.co.uk/
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/267/justice-for-irish-survivors-of-child-abuse/
Hope links work this time!
Regards to all Kay
I wish to say to Angela, I hope you will get the maximum compensation you deserve for what seems like a very very difficult life. I am sorry that you have not had any information. It seems a lot of people abroad outside of Ireland and the Uk are completely cut off. I hope you will complain to the Redress Unit at Education about this. I think you should get all the support you need.
I just want to say I am not a spokesperson for Support Centre’s by which I think you mean the Outreach Services. That you don’t know about them is related to the abysmal failure of the promotion of the existence of these Services. To repeat I do not run these Services. I am not responsible. I simply chair the Women’s Group open to all Women Survivors living in the UK.
Nor am I here to support, endorse or speak up for the proposed Trust Fund. I am simply trying to address the issues the Governments proposals raise. Yes you may say there is no need to engage. I respect your point of view.
I often feel I don’t want to engage at all, but I then feel if we completely ignore the Governments proposals , don’t engage, don’t give a view, what then do we say when they come along and simply implement their plans?
As for the Congregations….it is their terms of offer in all of their letters that has actually compelled the proposed Trust Fund. Their letters are very specific and many many of the congregation’s letters state very clearly they will only hand over their money if it is placed in Trusts.
PERHAPS IF PADDY HAS COPIES OF ALL THESE LETTERS FROM THE CONGREGATIONS, PROVIDED AT THE APRIL MEETING, YOU COULD PUBLISH THEM ON YOUR SITE.
PEOPLE CAN SEE FOR THEMSELVES
EXACTLY WHAT RESTRICTIONS THE CONGREGATIONS HAVE PLACED ON THEIR PALTRY OFFERS TO BE PAID AS THEY SAY ‘ OVER A FIVE YEAR PERIOD’.
Jimmy.
There is little one can add to your recommendation. Well said.
It would be encouraging if the religious were to be so compassionate as to consider our views to that of the Government.
Setting up a Trust Fund will benefit MAINLY the Trustees, they will receive salaries for investing the Trust. This of course will involve the Stock Market and we all know what can happen there.
All Group funding should cease immediately and those receiving monies should be made acountablle and answerable to one and all.
The Govermnment has been neglegent in handing the Groups Leaders LARGE AMOUNTS of money in the past. One questions? what qualifications did any of them have in handling large sums of money. Perhaps they were Accountants or Financial Investors. anyone knowing please do inform us, I for one would like to know.
Let us also press for the Abuse we suffered to be written into the History books. I would also like to see a day of Rememberance set aside and dedicated to all Irish Survivors around the world for the unnecessary suffering bestowed upon us by the so called Sisters of Mercy, Priests and Christian brothers.
Kathleen O’Malley.
I agree with you James, I wish people would contact Education and give their views.
We in the Women’s Group held three different meetings which lasted three hours each time.
(Yes yes, someone will blog Paddys site to say they knew nothing about them. Well we do our best).
At these Womens meetings We thrashed out the Government’s proposals as best we could on scant information. We undertook a Survey to ensure that the Education and HSE Depts. will know our views.We specifically asked Women for their views. We included them all in our submission to the Dept of Education. We also circulated them to te Opposition spokespeople in Labour and Fine Gael Parties.
At the meetings the Women were not happy with the proposals of the Government and said so. Everyone agreed strongly that those with long term disabilities as a result of their childhood experiences should be looked after for the rest of their lives.
Many Women agreed also that there should support for those who want counseling but they felt that the Government’s proposals would leave too many people out.
People on low and no income, people who felt that the Congregations funding should be distributed to all -though no one is able to define who it is the funding should be distributed amongst. Older people did not want a Fund but wanted practical financial support now as a top up to their pensions. Others wanted it to meet Care costs.
However, despite the opposition to the Governments proposals, we did not bury our heads; we felt as a Group that we had to ensure our views were known, though many women did sign the petition as well.
With their approval I made a Submission, and organized three different Surveys to get as wide a view as possible from Women who could not attend the meetings. The alternative to this action was to ignore the proposals, oppose, oppose and oppose and at the same time do nothing. Is this really an option? If we dont engage the decision makers wil simply impliment and ignore us.
What we got over in our submission to Education was the following.
We felt that there were very little details on what exactly the proposed Trust Fund would meet. It was and still is too vague and references to ‘education, health and welfare’ were about as much info as we got.
We asked and we are still asking who are the intended beneficiaries of the proposed Trust.?
Who will it include and who will it leave out?
For example late applicants to the Redress Board? Are they in or out of consideration?
The Laundry Women Workers. Are they in or out? I know the Taoiseach explicitly said they were not, but in the light of the Irish Human Rights Report and the huge demand by over 80% of Survivors who took part in the Survey in the UK who want the Women Laundry workers included. Will they? we don’t know.
Another Group is those abused, but whose institutions are not listed in the Redress Act schedule. Bethany House for example. Are they to be excluded again?
Mind you ~I have actually heard people say only those who applied to the Redress Board should be included. How can people be so selfish? If there is no justice for the Women Laundry workers or the Bethany House people, there is none for the rest of us.
When I say included in the proposals, I mean we need to know and be very clear about who will be entitled to apply to a proposed Trust Fund if the proposed Bill is passed in the Dail.
I completely agree with Jim on the ROP . They also sent letters to people living in the UK allegedly their ‘members’. It is nothing more then a mailing list acquired in the early days of mass meetings.
What possible relevance does a Group based in Cork; have to the lives of Survivors living in Cardiff. Coventry, London, Scotland, Yorkshire ? What have they to offer/ they are completely irrelevant to our daily lives.
These letters from ROP Cork I feel are a cynical attempt to get Survivors in the Uk to sign up again, then the ROP can go along to HSE and Education claim they are ‘helping members in the UK ‘ and submit a funding application for what? It’s a joke.
We would be quite willing to share information with them and them with us and help each other that way. I believe we should share information and even do exchanges of visits. We have no hostility towards them and we hope the new broom will make progress .
But we would not feel entitled in any way to come to Cork and start telling ROP what to do . We dont live there and we dont know the ROP members needs, issues or concerns, no more then ROP know ours. In terms of direct funding to the Womens Group, we do not receive direct funding to the Womens Group from either HSE or Education . The London Irish Centre receives funding for two staff and running costs to run the Outreach Services in London. A similar arrangement exists in Manchestter, Coventry.
I am trying to find out what the ANNUAL funding the London Irish Centre receives for to enable the Womens Group and the mixed Group to hold meetings. When I know I will let people know and hopefully be able to provide you with the ANNUAL amount of funding provided by Education to the Irish Centre for running meetings.
I have asked Education to give us a break down. The HSE do not give te Irish Centre any funding for Group activities. Please ask HSE if you are not happy with this information. I have asked for this request by email and ghappy to publish the reply.
Hi Folk,s I agree with the comment by Nomme de Gurre, the Religious made the Contribution’s fot the benifit of Survivor’s and have the power to INSIST that the Government share out these fund’s, in a fair and just manner, to ALL Folk who were damaged by the R/C/Church, and ESPECIALLY the women who passed through the Magdalan Laundrie’s .
These contribution’s are for the benifit of all Survivor’s, and should be of no concern to the Government, I cant beleive that the Religious would want to see the Government control these Fund’s without consideration to the Folk that they were intended for.
Survivor’s have clearly indicated their wish’s, and the only fair and just way to proceed, which would allow them to get on with their live’s and have some closure on the sadness they have experienced throughout their live’s!
The Church has indicated that it is taking step’s to put it’s house in order, to restore it’s good name, to eliminate ABUSE, and the PAEDOPHILE’S within it’s ranks, and to make the future safer for the Children of the world.
A good start in the right direction would be for the Religious to Fully address the damaged Folk, by respecting our wish’s, and ORDERING the Government to disperse the Contribution’s now, and abandon the idea of the Proposed Trust FUND, which , as indicated by the majority of Survivor’s, will not benifit them now in their elder year’s.
As previously stated, various Survivor support group’s have benifited greatly over the past year’s, have sprung up like mushroom’s, and been funded by Government dept’s, and some Religious, but it is well known now that these benifit’s were never filtered down to the member’s, they all claim to have !
I know for a fact, that many member’s are now passed on, and many more , like myself, became disapointed with how these group’s were being conducted, and gave them up.
But i would not be surprised to learn that these group’s are still being funded , on the back’s of the name’s of folk who are no longer member’s , and for the same reason’s above. Passed on , or left.
There is one option open to the Government before reaching any decision, that would be to send out to all, and every Survivor , a Ballot paper, with question’s about what, if any, group’s they belong to, question’s about their view’s on these group’s, and finally, what way the Contribution’s shoud be distributed!
This would give a good account of Survivor’s wish’s, and allow the Government to see that all their Funding to the various group’s were in fact unnecessary, and with some of them bordering on FRAUD!
It would also allow the Government to see common sence, and afford them the opportunity to put this entire business to bed, and also enable the Religious to proceed with their good intention’s of putting their house in order!
Keep Strong
Jimmy
Paddy
I completely agree with you, close down Support Groups that have no proper governance, no accounts to show and whose so called unelected ‘Committee’ Members never had any credibility . You have repeatedly asked for accountability and an audit on these Groups accounts.
The Women’s Support Network held an AGM in Feb 2010 and very specifically nominations and elections took place for Chair, Secretary and two other general members. The Women’s Network works to a proper Constitution and the Women are consulted constantly.
However, because of the reputation of Support Groups and so called leaders the Groups themselves, we in the Women’s Support Network should be prepared to obtain a fresh mandate. We do not want to be viewed as undemocratic and without a mandate. It is not the case.
We will ask Women on Saturday November 20th, if we can again hold fresh elections in February 2011. I hope that Ms Kathleen O Malley, Ms K Warren, May Henderson, and any other Women who live in the UK will attend, and put their names forward for election.
I hope they will be willing if elected to do the work involved in keeping members informed with information that is relevant, important and endeavours to take us all forward. I hope they will be responsible Leaders.
If they want to start by helping send out notices to 400 or so women, to photocopy and send out 400 copies of the Constitution, to photocopy 400 copies of the Annual Report which of course tey will help us write, and undertake all the other stuff required to ensure the elections are run well. They will need to draw up a procedural Agenda, an updated Newsletter and meet and greet the Women they would like to lead.
The reason why so many Groups are undemocratic and ineffective, is that this basic work to ensure democratic accountabilty from te start does not happen.
After ten years of hard work by so many of us to make sure the Women’s Support Group remains a positive Network for Women survivors , we want to ensure we are and continue to be accountable. So if any of these ladies all of whom live in the UK get elected and want to lead, I am more then happy to walk away and leave them to it. That would be democracy.
If successfully elected these ladies are entitled to take things forward. I would ask one thing as Founder of the Women’s Support Group Network, Please don’t turn it just into a talking shop, where people perpetually complain but do very little else
As leaders of course Women will be looking for you to give them information, to keep them informed, to tell them who you lobbied on their behalf, and you would have to engage even with people you would rather not speak to, including the Government, CORI, Government Departments and others, often you will deal with difficult press requests for information.
On the other hand you could take the view as newly elected Leaders, that the Women’s Support Group Network will not engage or talk to any of these decision makers, but just oppose everything. That is fine too, except these decision makers will go ahead anyway and implement their policies with or without your engagement it is an alternative approach. It might work, but I doubt it.
Can I say thank you to you David for your very kind words and understanding of what is is I actually do . Its been an honour to meeet with people like you and at times
when people like myself are constantly attacked you help us to keep going.
I hope David you will encourage Women you know to come to our AGM in Febuary especially any of your disabled friends who were in the instututions.
Once again can i say to Pauline , I dont provide the Services, I dont work for te Outreach Services, I run the Womens Group.
I absolutely accept it is not about me .It is about te future of survivors and we all have different ways of engaging. I believe that if we dont engage , don’t address the Governments actual intentions, ie they intend to impliment a Statutory Fund, we can’t then complain . It is it seems to me our duty to ensure to the best of our ability the Government know how we feel.
That is my approach but others as is their right, approach these matters differently .
I believe the Petition is a way of saying in large numbers what we think but as an action on its own it is not enough.
We have to talk to these guys and keep talking until we get home the views and strength of feelings of people out there.
Hello Patrick,
I have found this site to be extremely informative and have followed recently along with my Sister. Thanks to the Gran kids we are now aware of what is happening, as we have no contact with any Group as such? we actually felt quite silly when we realised all what has been going on.
Firstly I would like to comment on James, Bernadette, Rose, Pauline and Kay’s comments, in regards to their ideas and concerns (e.c.t) for the Proposed Trust Fund. I speak for my Sister also, (as Ex inmates) so I feel I have a right to speak out.
If I am right in saying so, Support Centres have ran for many years now? well, this was news to us. We had Lived in Belgium up to (2002) and, only recently, been made aware of what is going on. We are still waiting for our Applications to go through as we had left this quite late. However, it would be of no use for my Family to benefit in anyway, from any such Trust Fund, as I myself am Disabled, and I also have Multiple Sceroscis. I am limited in many ways and Most things are done for me, including this Email, so things are most certainly hard enough! Considering the severity of Abuse we endured as Children, and the damage it has had on us as Adults, we should (by right)be given the help we need, and the only way I can see this benefiting Survivors now would be to compensate Victims fairly, direct and immediately, the way it should have been the first time around. What we went through in the Industrials, lives with us daily. We do not Live, we merely exist (I speak for myself here foremost) and our Children have lived through the affects of such Abuse. I often wonder did anybody think of them? would they recognize the damage in them? I do not feel any Governing Bodies should have control or influence over Survivors. I would also feel extremely wary, (suspicious rather) of previous Inmates coming forward to Represent us at this time (especially in light of recent events between Groups, concerning their credibility) It is insensitive and presumptious, whether intentional or not, to suggest we would perhaps need Representation. I mean no disespect to you Sally, but I am sure you understand ? we have not been as fortunate as most in our Lives, and what James suggested, I feel, is the only way forward and, would end what can only be described as a never ending nightmare for once and for all.
There is absolutely no need to deal with any other than the Government-CORI as they are the ones who hold our Compensation. The Victims I do know of were handed dispicable, insulting amounts of Compensation, and I would say direct action, as stated above, would now be the only way to go.
Hi Kay, please would you forward the Link to the Petition as the one you have gave does not work. Thank you.
Hi Bernadette,
I remember writing about to the Ireland survivor groups, to be very weary if the nuns put you under a trust fund, like they did in Australia and then here in New Zealand. I have tried so many times to change the people who run the fund, as in my eyes it is conflict of interest, just the nuns, their lawyers and people they pick, run the fund. To me it is not right. I have been fighting this now since 2003 and they will not have a bar of it. We are still under control of these nuns and the catholic church.
I put it all in my book “SAY SORRY” about this trust fund, not being worth the paper it is written on and I still stand by my words. It is like begging them all over again and having to tell them what is wrong with yourself and your family. The worse you and your family are felling is how they pay out. I will not beg to them any more. they would not help me, but as some of the other women ask for the same as me and got it, this is re-abuse to me again. I hate this trust fund, what they should have done was given us all the same amount each year, and we men and women, should be able to pay for our ourselves.
We are NOT CHILDREN any more. Ann
hello david. all the comments are about the people who have no contact at all with the services offerd by the assosiations. its not about SALLY as a surviver.its about the future of survivers. if one out of every hundred or so gets something from all this then even if we have nothing against this its unfair to the other 99
hi anne free spirit thank you this is just the point i have been trying to convay over here control ! by them always ,if eire has to set up a trust fund then let us have a say who runs it no group leaders no survivor some independent body here would be better compensation is compensation and should be payed out as such to all survivors we are all getting older now so pay up now before we are all dead and again forgotten and the same should happen all over the world as the vatican is rich enoough on our backs !
Hi Paddy – hope you are keeping well. Haven’t read your website for some time so I was (am) fairly intrigued by this article and the many many comments written.
I admire Sally Mulready’s style of writing and how she is able to articulate and clarify many interesting points brought up. What I do fail to understand is why so many people demand that Sally justifies herself, where she was, how much she gets paid etc. I have known Sally for many years and I feel very fortunate to consider her a friend. Sally is the only person I know who actually does have the interests of survivors at heart, bearing in mind she is a survivor herself. I can’t praise or thank her enough for the amount of hard work and often under duress, she has done for survivors. Sadly Sally is often abused by fellow survivors but seldom is this reported or known. I certainly would not know as much about what is going on in Ireland without Sally filling the gaps.
Keep up the good work Sally.
No doubt the religious are aware of the feelings of victims of clerical terror and that the Irish Prime Minister has plans to bind these reparation monies into a trust fund regardless of what the victims wish. The religious can put this right by informing the Prime Minister that if it is the wish of the victims then these monies should be dispersed to them without further delay. Many of us simply are not going back to school and it is an affront to deny us controll over our own lives. So I am calling on the religious to take decisive action for just once in favour of the victims. Go on you can do it, What could you possibly loose.
KATHLEEN AND KAY, Thank you for your kind word’s. Kay ,i agree with you,we have to fight the Proposed Trust Fund, as it is not going to be of any benifit to most of us , now in our elder year’s.
What might be a good idea now, would be for folk to contact the Minister of Education, and indicate that many group’s in Ireland are receiving funding , on the back’s of many member’s they claim to represent!
I have just received a letter from the “new”
group, ROP, assuring me that they are going to be whiter than the last group, but i m not impressed, and wrote back requesting they remove my name from their data. I also wrote to the Government to indicate that this new outfit had somehow high jacked my detail’s, in order to contact me, and make out they were representing me. I beleive they pinched former member’s detail’s from the old ROP. So it would seem they are intending to carry on where the old ROP left off. They will not be getting any funding from the HSE if everyone take’s this course of action.
Regard’s Jimmy.
WHAT IS THE POINT OF ANOTHER get thgether. since the pope is unable to relats to this question . its been his excuse for inactivity up untill now or has he changed.
. .
Hi Jimmy
Thanks for this important information.
Your opinions on this news make perfect sense, like you I do believe that justice for all, may possibly be in sight, but we can’t get complacent, I think that we should campaign with all our might to stop this Trust Fund in its tracks
Thanks also to Anne in New Zealand for her warnings on the proposed Trust Fund and the effect it’s having on survivors there
Links for those who haven’t yet voted
http://shameofireland.co.uk/
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/267/justice-for-irish-survivors-of-child-abuse/
“And in the end, it’s not the years in your life that count. It’s the life in your years”. Abraham Lincoln
Regards to all Kay
Well presented Jimmy.
WHAT A WASTE OF MONEY FOR OUR ABUSERS TO HAVE YET ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A KNEES UP.
THE VATICAN HAS KNOWN SINCE 1950 ABOUT THE PAEDOPHILES WITHIN IN THE CHURCH. FATHER BROWN (THE FILM BOYS TOWN) TOLD PARLIMENT ALSO THE SAME TIME,ABOUT THE EXCESSIVE CORPORAL PUNISHMENT WITHIN THE INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.
DON’T PUT ANY MONEY IN THE COLLECTION BOXES AND THEIR WEALTH WILL DIMINISH.
Kathleen O’Malley.
BOTH THE VATICAN AND GOVERNMENT CAN NO LONGER PULL THE WOOL OVER OUR EYES.
Hi Folk’s, Reading in today’s Irish Independant, an article by John Cooney, that next Friday, the head of the Irish Church,Sean Brady, will be in Rome for a special meeting of world Cardinal’s to discuss,for the first time, the Global Paedophile crisis which has rocked the Church.
Their is also mention of the possibility of the Pope visiting Ireland in 2012.
In view of the above, i would hope that this knowledge might inspire the Irish Government to do what is right , and which most Victim’s requested, in sharing out the entire contribution’s donated to them by the Religious, by way of further and final Redress.
In this way, it would enable the damaged Folk, most in their elder year’s, to get on with their live’s, and also allow the Government to put the entire matter to bed,in a fair and just way.
Their Proposed Trust Fund , contributed by the Religious, is for the very badly damaged folk , Men and Women, and without doubt should include the Magdalan Ladie’s, and all the Abused, who passed through the various Institution’s, Convent’s and Laundrie’s of the Religious in Ireland.
The fact that Cardinal’s from all over the world are meeting in Rome to discuss the Paedophile’s and Abuser’s amongst their rank’s, bear’s witness to our collective suffering’s!
I view this as the Religious more than regonise their fault’s, and are making an effort to put their house in order, So i would hope that the Irish Government do like wise, and respect the victim’s wish’s now , since they are also very much responcible for our shattered live’s!
JIMMY
thank you Sally for answering my questions but the question was about what has been done as far as housing survivers in Ireland. we can only judge from the past ten years as the future is still a mystery. Idont mean to upset you but the past speaks for itself . If the people in chargeof all that did thier own survays i think it would be a lot more objectif.If you only question people who have regualer contact well you get the answeres you expect.and that is why the government pretend to believe that we are all implicated in all of this. Iwould not dream of going into an institution to live anywhere . thats why i would rather stay where i am. which of course puts me out of the framework of the staturary fund. Idont think that having good intentions is good for survivers. it causes clics. Iam sure that its a great job to do because it is gratifying. but its selective because of where we live . when i spoke of people who have been brainwashed needing qualified help otherwise there is a risk of staying instutionalised. its because i do care. we are not girls and boys but real people with our own responsabilitys
Yes, time is indeed slipping by. How long do we wait. Many many of us have written to the power that be asking for answers to so much. Are they listening to us do they give a hoot?… We are just kidding ourselves here. They have no intention of ever listening to us. There have been many many meetings with religious congregations and group representatives but where has it got us? The vast majority of survivours haven’t got a clue as to what is going on. A major call to ALL SURVIVOURS to come out on a protest march is what is needed?? Yes it would need proper organisation.
Bickering isn’t going to achieve anything.
Paddy, Kathleen, Sally, You all seem like intelligent people. What do you think? There has been many many useless meetings but just……
ONE MAJOR MARCH.
You are so right Jimmy,I know you are already active in the following, but will add the link below for those who are not yet aware of its existence from there survivors will have the opportunity to sign the petitions even if they don’t want to join!
Hope the link works OK
Best Regards Kay
http://shameofireland.co.
/
Well said Kay, i will second that, as i have indicated in previous post’s on the same thread.
I also feel the Justice For Magdalen merit’s much support, they were ,without doubt, clearly Victim’s of the Religious and the Irish State who placed them in the Laundrie’s and convent’s , where they suffered terrible abuse, while earning much money for their abuser’s!
The anger of many here, would be better directed at the Religious and the Irish Government, (and not at each other,) we need to unite in our overall opinion of what we are here for, to fight for justice, fair play for all victim’s, and show the State and Religious that we will never let up on our complaint’s!WE ARE NOT GOING AWAY!
Jimmy.
Pauline
Again you make some very good points.
I would like to see Survivors living abroad who wish to return home to live in Ireland, given that opportunity. I am thinking of so many people who are renting privately, or who are living in Council or other Social Housing and have never been able to buy their own homes.
In my submission on the current proposals of the Government I have pointed out that Survivors (mainly those under 60) have no chance of being rehoused at home. Most Local Housing Authorities, be they the Dublin Corporation, Galway County Council, Cork or Wicklow County Councils, do not give any priority for housing to Survivors or anyone seeking to return home.
I appreciate that people living at home in housing need all over Ireland and especially in Inner Cities should be a priority, and the huge demands on Local Authorities , but Survivors living in the UK or anywhere abroad should also be a high priority group for social housing.
I have suggested the only way that Survivors would get any chance of being rehoused back home is if the Government legislated and Provide for Survivors wishing to return home who need Social Housing, to have a legal entitlement to be rehoused.
If Survivors are going to take this big step to return to Ireland for good, it would be a great help in that process if they were able to obtain secure social housing. I do not mean a room in a hostel, or temporary lodgings from the Salvation Army (all praise to the Salvation Army for their work just the same) I mean good standard social housing where Survivors can start their lives a new back home in Ireland if that is their wish.
At our meeting with the Taoiseach in April he made particular reference to the desire of his Government to help Survivors who wished to return home. Also Minister Martin made the same commitment in the Summer on a visit to the UK. Lets see what happens to that promise.
For people aged 60 and over who want to return to Ireland and who want to be considered for sheltered housing or housing suitable for Older People there is the Safe Home Project , based in Mulranny, Co Mayo.
The Safe Home Project was founded by Dr Jerry Cawley, to help older Irish people who wished to return to any part of the Irish Republic to do so. Many hundreds of older Irish people have been helped in this way.
The Safe Home Project is run by very experienced people who give a huge amount of support and assistance to people. But it’s not all plain sailing. Often people return and find they cannot settle down or they find living back in rural Ireland is lonely. Depending on which part of Ireland you want to go to it can take a long time to find something suitable. The point is the Safe Home Project is a useful first step to find out if returning home is feasible. They give very good advice.
Also for people returning that live on social welfare benefits, the system has changed and people need to get really sound advice as to how it might affect their income if they return home. You need to know what part of your social welfare benefits (if any) will transfer with you.
The recent Surveys undertaken in the UK, I have mentioned on this site a few times,
tells us that in fact very few people want to return home for good. We have children grandkids, friends, communities we live in and though we may love our country and visit often, not all of us want to return for good.
But the Survey also revealed huge support for subsidized holidays to Ireland, especially for older survivors who would love to visit but can only do so if they get help or a group holiday is organised for them. Many have no family they know of, no one to stay with and no one to greet them when they go home.
We have suggested this in the Survey so let’s see what happens to that proposal.
As for your chronic ill health which you face for life because of what happened as a child, a situation thousands of us face, Frankly if the Statutory Fund is to mean anything, it has to mean that people with long term ill health and other disabilities
Must get the support they need for the rest of their lives no matter where they live.
In the so called ‘offer letters’ from the Congregations they have made several references to funding care and health needs of survivors. Help must be easily accessible And address the individual needs of Survivors. Let’s see what the proposals
Kathleen
Apologies for getting it wrong about you being in a Magdalene Laundry. I looked up your promotion video again. Yes, I misunderstood the line in your video that says
‘Can you imagine a little girl working in a laundry?’
I wrongly assumed you were saying you worked in a Magdalene Laundry. Obviously not, it was a laundry in the Reformatory school that you were in. Sorry about that.
As we all know there were lots of those kinds of Laundries, in institutions all over Ireland. There was a Laundry in the institution I was in and very young girls worked there. These were girls plucked out of the classrooms, written off as pupils not capable of learning before they even reached their teens.
The alternative to education was hard manual labour, in a huge laundry, with a colander (a big rolling iron that steamed sheets etc). It burnt the tips of your fingers and remembering the awful smell of starch inhaled all day long.
Yes Kathleen , I can imagine a little girl and in my time I saw many little girls and teenagers working in these places because someone disregarded their right to the most elementary education. Many people out there will recognise what I am saying.
PS Kathleen, I refer and respect the name you post with as Kathleen O Malley. I wish you would respect the same for me. As already stated, I do not wish to be addressed as M/s or Mrs but by my name Sally Mulready
Angry, wonderfull writing. Don’t stop, keep it coming. I sense that your future writings will cause sleepless nights for those truncheon weilding camp guards from the Irish child gulags. There are others whose sleep will not come easy now that a sharp pen is at work. Please keep writing, you not only have something to say you allso write with talent.
Greetings from New Zealand, a survivor of abuse and sexual abuse in two catholic church orphanages for 24years.
Thank you Paddy, for this space, so as many can come here to have a voice, to let the world know about what happened behind those red brick walls.
I want to tell you about the comment which they nuns have put us all under in New Zealand and please, if you hear about a Trust Fund, is about to be made up for you in Ireland, do be very careful, and make sure that you read every word of it and question it over and over again.
Our found in New Zealand is for 30 men and women who, came with me about the Nazareth House order of nuns and I can tell you this, they will never change or stop their lies.
The fund is suppose to be for our health, education and well being. I have had trouble from the start with these nuns and I will not back down to them. This trust fund, is like begging to them and the hold it has over us is not right. There is a nun on the board and their lawyer, and three more people they have picked, so it is not really suited for us, as no one represents us on the board, all are for the nuns.
Just be very careful PLEASE. Ann NZ.
Just want to say I would like to see Kathleen 0’Malley to be included in any group of representatives, I have found her approach towards survivors in distress to be kind, compassionate and supportive, I refer in particular to the http://www.paddydoyle.com/a-consultation-proposal-statutory-fund-2/ thread
Regards to all Kay
Further up is a post by ROBERT. HELLO ROBERT. HE STATES THAT THERE ARE MANY SURVIVORS COMING BACK TO Ireland. he states that they are not housed. its been 10 years now and yet people from the institutions are on the streets . the salvation army has been providing temporary lodgings for years for all sorts of people. but what about the associations have they housed many survivors. temporary lodgings just keeps them in the same situation. as for health well I have a chronic illness due to about 600 heavy slaps in the face but when I was in Dublin I paid the doctor myself . so what’s in place for people like me . Bernardo have had ten years to trace family’s. they still have not found my elder sister . that’s very disappointing. as for education well I have managed to scrape through up until now without any other education than the one I got but now I don’t need it any more . what I do need is glasses false teeth and the possibility of paying my private insurance up until my death. help would be doing my shopping when I cant do it myself .
Thank you Sally for your civil reply, I don`t often get such treatment. I`m a “he” who spent time in Artane , Letterfrack and Daingean, and I must add, Mountjoy Gaol in 1960 before being sent to Daingean, yes like so many others I`ve been through the grinder and as a child, again, like so many others suffered the maulings of the lunatics who passed for “magistrates” in the Ireland of the 1950`s, in my own case being “gifted” a sentence of five years in Artane for a few days “mitching” from school, I did`nt last long at Artane and was subsequently hi-jacked to Letterfrack for legging it on a regular basis leading to the following thirty years being “mispent”, crime, broken marriage , the usual impedementa resulting from a “disturbed” mind bereft of emotional maturity, social skills, or even a sense of responsibility, the usual disturbed and psychotic child which the religious orders running the gulags of Ireland produced in large numbers. its a LONG story Sally which you can soon read and hear about. I have spent the past year doing some “digging” myself confronting my own demons, and the demons of others will also be on “display”. I`m sure Paddy is aware of the “rantings” of Angry over the past nine years, and I`m grateful to him for giving me the space here.
I must also add here Sally that I met you earlier this year on other unrelated matters and I found you forthright and uncomplicated, a pleasant change from the lies, deceit and treachery since I got involved in this issue of the Industrial schools. For now, thats enough about me.
You ask me about “redress” and is it the right way to go, without being flippant Sally, “redress” to me in regard to the institutions still means putting your clothes back on having being raped, buggered or sodomized by one of these so called “religious” nonces who spent their time in these institutions viewing prepubescent children as a perk of the job in fulfilling their insatiable sexual appetites. But as I said earlier, my whole experience of the “redress” system and other matters will soon be in the public domain. I have a burning need to inform survivors of the treacherous scammers and conmen and women involved in this deadly process, where MONEY and not survivors remains as king. My regard for the “gagging” order will soon become clear.
“Redress” for the Magdalene women and girls in the present format must at all costs be avoided, and GREAT care and attention be paid to their chosen Solicitors. So many ROGUES out there. There HAS to be meaningful and strong legal arguement conducted on all levels with State involvement to ensure that the Magdalene victims are NOT subjected to the assinine antics of the rule and divide ethos introduced as a means of control and subjugation in the appointment (self appointment) of unmandated “group leaders”. If ever there was a need for what WE were promised in regard to HIGH COURT COMPENSATION, then the Magdalens are now on concrete ground to make good that statement of the State that the Redress Board would meet those levels of compensation, it did`nt and they have`nt.
As for the State issuing ANOTHER Bertie like “apology” to the Magdalenes Sally, people, like Disraeli once said, ” should waste no time reading it” would be the only advice I could profer.
Angry.
M/s Mulready.
I was never in the Laundries. My Book clearly states such.
Thank you for the complement.
Kathleen O’Malley.
hello Mr or Mrs angry. I also have a strange accent for someone born in Ireland. 50 years have gone by since I left but does that make me less worthy as a survivor. i don’t think so . Kathleen like others did what she had to to get through life so respect is what we all deserve.
Well Sally and Angry and Paddy allow me to say how proud I feel that we have such people amongst us. Like Pauline I too live on the continent and my only window is that provided by Paddy Doyle. Without it my information would be meagre. I don’t post often but read every posting with interest. I feel honoured to be allowed a voice here and I hope this is reflected by the respect I show in my postings. We are desperately in need of people with a clear view as to the mechanisms of the Irish government as it is there we must put to use our best forces. Let us rally to support Sally and Paddy and Angry and do what we can to clear the way for them so that our views are put at the door of the statutory bodies who have the power to decide over matters in relation to the welfare of children from Ireland’s “Long Night”.
Kathleen
I watched your short video last evening. It’s a good video and states your experience very well. You look very well preserved too.
I do remember meeting you now. In fact I think we did Woman’s Hour at some stage together.
I am reminded as well that you were in the Laundries and experienced the inhumanity of forced labour and wrongful imprisonment.
You must have views on the Government and
The Congregations position (or non position) today. It is women like you that should speak out -by being there your views can be authenticated. I wasn’t there -though my mother was.
Sally
Sally I have just read your latest comment sounds good to me!
“if we had some small group of trusted people (like Paddy, sorry Paddy needs must) Kathleen and others, myself , Phyllis Morgan, who could come together and even at this late stage trash out at least a list of our priorities and indeed our questions and our need for clarification of a number of the proposed areas.”
Sally
Like Angry I too admire the work you have done and continue to do
In response to my not giving an opinion on the Laundry Women and other issues, I thought I had made my views clear when I said I believe in Justice for all, I signed the petition in support of them weeks ago! I also signed the petition opposing the Trust fund
As for seeing these women go through the Redress Board at their age I would say definitely not, my husband (deceased) was very ill after giving his account of the brutality he endured at the hands of the Christian Brothers during the 50s, he obviously wasn’t believed if the paltry award he received is anything to go by. As his wife and carer I travelled from London to Dublin with him but was denied entry to the interview room. I have a lot to say about my husband’s injuries both physical and mental but would rather leave it there.
Anyway this is about where survivors go from here, yesterday I checked out the governments website, and its saying that the bill on the proposed trust fund will be published in 2011 but couldn’t find out when it will be ruled on, so yes sally more views are needed to establish what the majority of survivors want to see happen, the obvious way brings me back to one of my earlier comments, all survivors should have been consulted, the Redress Board have all survivors names and address’s, and for goodness sake we are living in a computerised age not the dark age (not saying all people should be computer literate but this is a professional body so would have all the relevant skills to do this)
Sally I am not always able to answer comments due to hospital appointments and sometimes admissions, but will try to keep up when I can
Kay
Bernadette,
Yes I agree time is marching on. And may be there is too much debate but who actually is taking action. Only thing I can see going on right now is this website.
Right now I think we are all awaiting information as to the Governments intentions in the light of the Submissions made to the Dept. of Education.
Where we are at as I understand it presently is that the submissions on the Governments proposals for a Statutory Fund, made by the general public, voluntary organizations, individuals, Survivors groups in UK and Ireland, and all kinds of submissions other sections of society are being read by officers at the Dept. of Education.
I understand that there has been a huge response to the request for Submissions and we don’t know yet if the current proposals will have widespread approval. There are thousands of Survivors out there, not attached to Support Groups who may have very different views on a proposed Statutory Fund. It will be very interesting to see the outcome of the Submissions.
(Again just my guess) don’t hold me to it, These submissions will be drawn up into a Report for Minister Coughlan and her colleagues. I understand the process after that will be to draft legislation and (only my guess) the Bill will go before the Dail for approval.
My guess also is that the proposals won’t be that different to what the Taoiseach, Brian Cowen stated at the April meeting at which I, Paddy and others were present. Brian Cowen made a lengthy statement but the two important pieces of information; I got out of the meeting;
• The Government wanted to create legislation to establish a Statutory Fund to address the ‘educational, health and welfare ‘needs of survivors.
• That this proposal in the broadest sense of a Statutory Fund has an All Party Agreement. Though Joan Burton, Kathleen Lynch and other TD;-‘s have clarified this so called ‘All Party Agreement’. they promise to ensure we get a chance to air our views.
• A Children’s Hospital will be agreed and resourced using part of the Congregations proceeds.
• They do not intend to include Women Laundry Workers.
No one I think is denying now the need to ensure that the most vulnerable of Survivors are looked after for the rest of their lives. However it is very clear that how that is done and who is included has yet to be agreed.
So if people want action they urgently need to start lobbying now. We need serious people able and willing to negotiate an Agreement. If we don’t, a lot of this will simply be legislated for and imposed.
There is an urgent need for some kind of unity of approach and leadership to ensure the views issues and concerns of survivors are known and understood.
If we had some small group of trusted people (like Paddy, sorry Paddy needs must) Kathleen and others, myself , Phyllis Morgan, who could come together and even at this late stage trash out at least a list of our priorities and indeed our questions and our need for clarification of a number of the proposed areas.
We ourselves could agree what are the key issues for us. If we fail to do this, well the legislation will happen and the actions I mention will go ahead.
Please don’t all have a go at me for stating these views? We need to get real as Bernadette says time is marching on.
This is just my own understanding of what will roll out in next few months. I may be completely missed reading this and the submissions from so many, may force a change of plan completely on the Government’s current proposals but somehow I doubt it.
What do people think?
One last point . The Government only need to give two days notice of its intentions to bring this legislation to the Dail , so watch this space .
I live on the continent and as far as I know I am the only person from the industrial schools in Ireland. You see many of us travelled and settled down when we could. So it would mean a long and expensive journey. many others are in this kind of situation . Even two or three hundred miles can be expensive.there is the age factor two . And since we have had to go through everything by ourselves we or I do not like the fact that officially we are being helped through all that .So you see its limited by geography.WE WHO ARE ON THE OUTSIDE MIGHT SEEM JUST GRUMPY but that is not it .I think we were all upset at the redress board but many were unaware that this service existed. yet we are all part of it officially.
to much debate and not enough action!and time is marching on by the time this debate is finished the hospital will be built and the trust fund set up against our wishes i for one have written to plenty of people in ireland cori the brian cowan the education dept sisters of charity and mercy,
the human rights court ! the pope no reply !!!!!!!!!! working to get certs of innocence ! and the ispcc records ,also the health board for records held by them ! awaiting vaccine trials information will there records ever be released ?one mass cover up by church and state ,not forgetting court records and where to get them aloy of issues all are being worked on at this very time lack of information has been a major problem for years !
Dear ‘ Angry’.
Thank you for our very strong supportive comments.
I will continue to protest about injustice and fight for a fair and just settlement for the Women Laundry Workers.
Who might Angry be?
Still awaiting response to my comments on various issues for example Mr or Ms Angry do you think the Women Laundry Workers should be compensated -given a Pension and an apology?
Do you think the Redress is a good route in your experience ? I am just curious to know out there as Kay, Nor Kathy< nor May have not made any response to what I’ve said. Not that they should but I am just interested to know what people think.
Meantime thank you for your words – they are very much appreciated.
Kathleen
What ‘views on Ireland’ are they ?
What ‘situation’ in Ireland are you talking about?
And as for a political debate. I wish we were having a political debate.
After all from the moment we wake up our lives are governed by politics.
Sally Mulready
dont forget that ireland was a poor country yet our perents paid for us and the state also paid and everything made in the schools was sold yet the nuns and priests paid no taxes on all this money .and yet years later the governement have taken the monies from them as if we still dont matter
the industriel schools were a money spinner for the church. but the mony was not spent in the schools. Food was very limited or out of date for consumation.And in the laundries no provision apparantly was made for later in life so the redress was more like a small wage for our years of work .we should be getting fair treatment for all even if we are not able to organise things around us . and the ladies who worked in the laundries are part of this too. if these schools get shoved under the carpet then history will be lied to as well its not about a few its about many
Sally, you protest TOO much, this being said by M/s Kathleen O` Malley. I totally AGREE with M/s Kathleen O` Malley, Sally is a great protester, and testimony to her ability as a great protester can be summed up quite simply by the grateful thanks of SIX MEN and their families to people like Sally Mulready and the army of others who also PROTESTED TOO MUCH in the search for justice for these SIX MEN, whose life of pain and torture began by being hauled up before magistrates.!
I`ve followed this thread with interest, in fact, with a vested interest based on a need to understand how so much ” misunderstanding” is on display here. Sally Mulready has articulated her very easily understood points, answered all questions put to her and showed respect and restraint in doing so, despite the fact that there are some provocative comments levelled at her, unjustifiably so.
I would like ( for what its worth) to offer my support to Sally Mulready as she once again “”PROTESTS TOO MUCH”” in favour of the Magdalen women and girls getting a fair crack of the whip, getting recognition for their past suffering and compensation on a par with other institutional inmates. Its refreshing to observe that SOMEBODY is prepared to forego the GOLF COURSE and take up the cudgel on behalf of these former inmates of these most brutal laundries.
I too would like to hear M/s Kathleen O` Malleys views on “leadership”, pension rights for those survivors in the UK who presently have NO representation, many who struggle daily just to eat, never mind pay the bills, the fair distribution of any further “reparation”, and if M/s Kathleen can set a clinic up where we survivors here in the UK can get the benefit of her legal expertise to assist us in determining the role that she see`s for herself as a humanist in these matters.
I see M/s Kathleen that in your introduction to your book you make mention of the fact that in order for you to succeed in your brave new world following your “escape” from Ireland that you jettisoned your heritage, Irish birthright, accent and indeed all things Irish in order to establish your new found “you”. Quite frankly I`m in awe of your wonderfully cultivated English accent having watched you on video yesterday. You most certainly have attained all the relevent appropos which sustains your present lofty ideals. However, I was heartened, and indeed happy to see that you delved once more into your Irish “heritage” on a matter of “principle” as you state, in order to accept the money from the redress board for your sufferings as a child. Hopefully you may once more delve into your jettisoned Irish “heritage” to assist Sally Mulready in her campaign to assist those who were not as lucky and fortunate as yourself.
Angry.
M/s Mulready.
We have met face to face on two occasions. My Book can be purchased via Amazon.
I was not aware there was a Political debate going on here. My views on the situation in Ireland are the same as they have always been.
Kathleen O’Malley.
Pauline
Pauline
You ask very fair questions. I am not sure I know all the answers.
To the question do they accompany people to the Redress Board? They do. The London Office of the Outreach Services LISOS, does accompany people to the Redress Board and have done so since the Redress board was established.
LISOS Outreach Service, have also negotiated for the Redress Board to hold hearings in the UK for Survivors. Most recent was in October. Phyllis (the Outreach Worker) has successfully argued that some survivors could not travel to Ireland. There has been a good few hearing of this kind.
They LISOS have also accompanied people who were so called ‘late applicants’ and assisted them to be able to ‘face’ the Board but for far too many late applicants , the experience of going before the redress board was awful, traumatic and many felt they were treated like criminals.
I know of one woman who got shingles on the plane returning from Ireland after the hearing such was her distress. A lot of late applications got through but many did not.
In terms of accessing the Services. I don’t know where you live Pauline, they are in London and Coventry – Manchester has no worker presently. Do you want to call me and see if we can assist over the phone? If you live in Uk LISOS Service can visit you.
We can arrange maybe if you like for you to get the minutes of the Women’s group meetings or I can arrange to let you have dates of future meetings and maybe you could select one to go to that would be helpful, for example we are holding our Tenth Anniversary of the Women’s Group in February that might be good, we are having a guest Speaker .I don’t have an address for you but presumably LISOS have.
As regards the skills of Outreach Staff – one of the staff has been working as the Outreach Worker for ten years now and is at the same time a Survivor herself. However people who feel brainwashed or who endure any kind of mental health issues the Outreach will be with their agreement referred to
A range of counselling services that would be of benefit to them…
Hope that’s helpful.
Kathleen
Regarding My reply to your questions …which answers do you think are ‘short’?
I thought my problem was that I write too much and take too long to respond, so I am very keen to know which ones you thought were short and in what way you would like me to elaborate. I am very willing to do so.
No, I am not campaigning for office. I have just been elected for four years in May without issuing a single poster, press release or mentioning it on Paddy’s web or anywhere in the Survivors community.
You see I don’t take advantage. And no I am not campaigning for funding. Funding for what may I ask?
Yes, you are right. We, including me, have had very bad experiences from Group Leaders and you are right to be very judgemental and not trust them. Look at the saga of the B&B in Dublin paid for by the HSE for Survivors that we could not access, that demanded ‘cash only’ payments and still the HSE don’t want to investigate. Why are you not howling about this absolute abuse of Survivors? Look at the ROP Saga
Where our people are fighting amongst themselves-the only gainers are lawyers and its gone right up to High Court. Who’s going to pay that Bill? Let me suggest the answer. Survivors of course. This is a disgrace.
I am happy to reply to any questions you have put to me and elaborate on my ‘short answers’. It really does surprise me that they are ‘short’. I was worried that I was taking up too much space on the site and you tell me my replies are short.
I understand you are a Magistrate, (I maybe wrong) if so you will understand the concept of being predisposed and as a consequence not unbiased when asking a question or reaching a conclusion or making a judgement.
I believe you do both when you are addressing me – you pre judge and you conclude based on very few real facts. I do not agree with this approach – accuse first and get the facts later. That is not natural justice. So far almost every assertion you have made about me has been wrong.
Anyone who knows me will know that I have worked hard to ensure that Survivors in UK are properly represented and their views known.
I have never met you, and you know as little about me as I about you, but in our exchanges so far have you found me to make any remarks that are offensive, ill informed or rude. No, because I don’t go there. We all have enough of that.
Your attitude to me is understandably based on your experience of so called Group Leaders and I can understand that. I am totally opposed to most of them and believe they have let us all down and have wasted the good will we had from Irish Society and moreover have shown them to be not capable of proper leadership. I was at the April meeting with the Taoiseach and five of /his Ministers – I was absolutely shocked at some so called Leaders utter disrespect for the Leader of the country. Even if you did not agree with one word, Ireland is a democracy and Brian Cowen is leader of the country. We could put our view without disrespect. Of course the other consequence is that we came out with very little information beyond the proposals that it would be a Statutory FUND for ‘education, health and welfare’. I was I have to say ashamed at some by no means all our so called ‘leaders’. In fact it was actually Paddy, the last to speak who redeemed us all with a very powerful rational contribution , making it clear to Ministers and Mr Cowen that it was not all about money.
To ask silly questions about me either campaigning for Office or for funding shows that you are predisposed, making judgements and not actually interested in the answers, whilst you ignore key issues like those I raise in earlier comments.
Is it that you don’t want to discuss my views on justice for Laundry Women Workers, or is it that you don’t want to address the findings of the surveys or is that you don’t want to address the issues and the strong possibility that the Government will actually pass a Bill to create a Statutory Fund. Don’t you at least want to say what you think we should do next.
Why do you not want to actually address issues that really matter – me standing for public office or seeking funding (which I’m not) is peripheral to the main issues?
And Who cares?
Another issue which you avoid completely is who actually should be included /benefit from the ADDITIONAL funding the Congregations say they will be handing over in a FIVE YEAR period.
Do you trust that this handover of funds will happen? How do you think the Government should tackle this issue? You must have views.
Go on give me your views, your suggestions on something. I don’t want to read more sanctimonious self righteous stuff -its tedious and as a Magistrate (forgive me if you are not) you will I am sure be capable of good robust discussions about what are issues are or should be.
Lets engage in a good healthy discussion. People respect you. I have read peoples reference to you and their call for you to play a leadership role. What do you think?.
Lets read it.
Whether someone is obliged to answer questions because they are taking office or not is frankly none of my business. Most people taking that course of action hang posters out of lamp-post, set up websites or even take out TV adverts. All have to conform to planning permission, fair representation and so on. I presume that as a magistrate, you’re all too well aware of that.
For your further information, I show no bias whatever. Over the years – just last week in fact I had to take down a series of posts that were deemed to be anti-Semitic. I’ve also had to remove posts which were clearly slanderous to a senior civil servant. The point I’m making is that just because you don’t see what I approve and don’t approve, does not give you the right to accuse me/suggest that I might be biased. You couldn’t be further wrong.
This is an open forum but I am the owner of it and therefore responsible for what appears on it. If I make a decision not to approve a comment, it will be made on the basis that it could/would cause offence. I take my responsibility seriously, very seriously.
If you feel for whatever reason this ‘open forum’ is not adequate for the view you wish to express then it is with the greatest respect that I suggest you consider the setting up of an alternative to it. I trust this makes my position clear – very clear.
Many hours of work go into keeping this website going for which I have never and don’t ever want to receive a penny. Postings sometimes have to be corrected for spelling mistakes and grammatical errors purely to assist the writer of the comment. I’m happy to do that but can’t always get around to it due to the amount of ‘traffic’ through the website. Paddy.
Paddy.
With all due respect, anyone who is prepared to take Office be it for Local Authority, Representing Survivors or Trade Unions should be capable of answering questions without feeling they are being got at.
Sadly there is a tendancy for People who have been abused like us or the Black African to feel angry and direct their hurt inwards and attack their own kind, often biting the hand that feeds them. however we have had bad experiences from Group Leaders who have let us down very badly. Is it so very wrong for us to ask peretinent questions.
M/s Mulready put herself forward, I personally have not read any comments from her in a long time. I asked questions of her, I could say her replies were somewhat short. However this is an open forum and once abusive language and legitimate questions are asked surely there can be no harm in that.
Of course Paddy you must vet the comments but to bin some, I think may be seen as bias.
I ask again, Sally are you campaigning for Office or funding.
Surely Paddy your site is for open discussions?.
Kathleen O’Malley.
hello sally well my point is I left Ireland a long time ago ‘ so what age are the people who were in industrial schools. from the media I understood that they were no longer industrial schools in the late 60ths. but when I was in Dublin I went to the nova office and the survivors I met there were born in the 60ths. Also like many others I seem to be out of the framework of these services. If I understand right I can benefit from all that only if I contact them for a particular reason. For example do these services go with people to the redress board. If so are they warned about what its really like. because its an awful experience to go through. but that would mean that one out of every hundred or so gets help and understanding if they are inside the framework . And what about the others . you have used the words professional and skilful but are they qualified to deal with people who have been brainwashed,. please don’t think there is anything personal in all this they are questions that’s all and thank you very much for answering.
Thanks Paddy
I’m sure many who contribute comments will appreciate this.
Sally
I’ve allowed people to write more or less what they like on this website over a ten year period. I’m now concerned that there is a real danger of people insulting others or making allegations which are either untrue or without foundation. My website has as its main aim, to give information and of course to allow people to exchange views. Of late there seems to be a sort of “getting at people” attitude. I’m not happy with that and will not in future approve comments, irrespective of who sends them, to be posted on the site if there’s any indication or suggestion of “having a go at someone”. Individual views have always been respected here. I’d very much appreciate all writers keeping it that way rather than to have to ‘trash” a comment because it is offensive. Paddy.
May
May, I have met you about three times all of them at meetings! Am I imagining this.
Am I also imagining that you stood up and said how much you appreciated my work! Not that it matters at all, I was very surprised, but I’m now worried about my memory.
Why so angry? On the one hand you are saying you don’t get info from ‘Camden’ by which I take it you mean Phyllis on the other hand you say Phyllis welcomes you. I know she does, she welcomes everyone and she is respected and loved by everyone for her as you rightly say HARD GRAFT!
Yes I see no contraction there. I set up the outreach Services and then I moved on. It happens. You can ask under FOI for the information on my role in setting them up its all there. But as I say I moved on.
No , actually its just in recent days I have started to suggest to people like yourself and others who spend so much time damning me that now I think, yes well why don’t you do some volunteering. Why attack what I do.
Well be reasonable if I don’t have your address I cannot let you know. So I don’t see the joke. Also how come so many women attend our meetings if as you and a few others keep saying you are not notified.
I understand that you have commitments. You know what so have I. I work full time, I have a 90 year old mother to care for and like everyone else I have huge domestic calls on my time. I am also a local councillor.
So I understand your situation and I don’t attack it, I respect that people do what they can.
Mail merge! Sorry I am not great on the computer. I still use it as a typewriter. I struggle to use the computer, the net, the web, and all the rest of it. Plus I was born with one hand it’s a bit of a draw back. So sticking 400 letters in envelopes-can be done but it takes me a while.
I didn’t think I was writing an epistle -just stating my views. I guess I write a lot but again I am hopeless at editing myself.
Really I must try harder! Why not deal with the issues I raise in my epistles? Deal with that would love to hear your views. It would be a lot more interesting then making petty little points-see the bigger picture and then we can have a nice interesting discussion.
I suggest you take your anger out on those who perpetrated crimes against us and not on me. Please? You know what I actually have feelings and insults and attacks offend and hurt me too.
May
May, I have met you about three times all of them at meetings ! Am I imagining this.
Am I also imagining that you stood up and said how much you appreciated my work! Not that it matters at all, I was very surprised, but I’m now worried about my memory .
Why so angry? On the one hand you are saying you dont get info from ‘Camden’ by which I take it you mean Phyllis on the other hand you say Phyllis welcomes you. I know she does, she welcomes everyone and she is respected and loved by everyone for her as you rightly say HARD GRAFT!
Yes I see no contriction there. I sdet up the outrech Services and then I moved on. It happens . You can ask under FOI for the information on my role in setting them up its all there. But as I say I moved on.
No , actually its just in recent days I have started to suggest to people like yourself and others who spend so much time damning me that now I think, yes well why dont you do some volunteering. Why attack what I do.
Well be reasonable if I dont have your address I cannot let you know. So I dont see the joke. Also how come so many women attend our meetings if as you and a few others keep saying you are not notified.
I understand that you have commitments. You know what so have I . I work full time, I have a 90 year old mother to care for and like everyone else I have huge domestic calls on my time. I am also a local councillor.
So I understand your situation and I dont attack it, I respect that people do what they can .
Mail merge ! Sorry I am not great on the computer. I still use it as a typewriter . I struggle to use the computer, the net, the web, and all the rest of it. Pluse I was born with one hand its a bit of a draw back . So sticking 400 letters in envelopes-can be done but it takes me a while.
I did’nt think I was writing an epistle -just stating my views. I guess I write a lot but again I am hopeless at editing myself.
Really I must try harder! Why not deal with the issues I raise in my epistles ? Deal wiith that would love to hear your views. It would be a lot more interesting then making petty little points-see the bigger picture and then we can have a nice interesting discussion.
I suggest you take your anger out on thoes who perpetrated crimes against us and not on me. Please? You know what I actually have feelings and insults and attacks offend and hurt me too.
Sally. The Last time I was At Camdem was the day C.Buckley was there . The only way I fond out about the meetings is when my friend Kath, who lives in the north, finds out)
. I gave Phillis my e-mail number some time ago. I still don’t get any information from Camden. When I have in the past been at meetings it is Phillips who welcomes me.as it is Phillis does all the Hard Graft
You are very fond of telling people to volunteer ,or to go out and help themself.
you also say in one of your epistle you set up the outreach workers and in the next breath you say you have nothing to do with it.
As for giving you my address and consent so you can send me mail. That is a joke. you cannot even let me know when the women meeting are taking place.
You also say the women group is run by women in their spare time and would I like to help out.I am a full time carer for my partner who has dementia. As for sending out mail to 400 . I worked for private mailing firm before I retired and it dosent take very long to mail merge 400 letters.May
Thanks Paddy. The debate is getting good and your site is enabling this to happen.
Thanks to Kay for her response. I hope that you find contributing to this as positive as I do and thanks for being so open and frank about what you can and can’t do.
Kathy I prefer to be called Sally. I am the same as everyone else I don’t like formalities when we are all in this together.
I have to say I recognise this whole series of questions you have raised.
The order the questions are written by you. I had exactly the same set of questions and assertions put to me before by someone else.
There is a bit of confusion in some of your comments.
I agree with you about the courts and branding young infants with court records for the rest of their lives. I’ve seen people really upset when they read this Court stuff about themselves. A lot of people only discovered this stuff when applying for records for Redress-adding the stress of the whole redress procedure. It’s all so cruel and it makes you wonder what kind of Justices, Magistrates, and all these Court officials in those days could live with themselves condemning infants, children and young people in this way.
But yes you are right of course no child should ever have endured it. Again another example of the State failing in its duty to ensure our Constitutional right to be cherished. Add to that all this was taking place with the connivance and implicit sanction of the Irish Catholic Church under the very wicked Archbishop John Charles. There was nothing humane or in any way Christian about those who governed Ireland then. We were never cherished and our human rights were violated every day.
Not that its any consolation, but do you know of Minister of Justice Dermot Ahearn‘s actions on removing all criminal records imposed on children, infants and young people. I have secured about four removals and apologies from the Minister of Justice for Women I know who just wanted this stuff removed.
Regarding no meetings in London in ten years. No meetings of course that is not true.
This year alone the Women’s group has had four or five Meetings. Yes we did discuss all the topics you raised. Not once but many times. If you like I can send you details of when they took place, minutes and the record of attendance at these meetings.
I cannot speak for Manchester and the ‘select few’. I was in Manchester in September and there were at least 40 people present. I did not get the impression it was exclusive, but as I say I don’t live in Manchester .
Once again at the risk of boring contributors to Paddy’s site to death with my repetition- the Outreach Workers are not employed TO RUN GROUPS or to run Group meetings or write Newsletters.
Who should write Newsletters? I have done some off my own back to the Women’s Group when I have something worthwhile to say? I don’t however see it as my responsibility either.
Have you done a Newsletter? It is surely up to anyone who wants to write newsletters, join a group, or create a group in your area, and get involved.
I am responsible for chairing the Women’s group and making sure its run well and that they are properly informed. I do this by keeping myself up to date with what’s going on. I read the Irish Times and the Irish Independent every day. I listen to Morning Ireland; I monitor everything the Government or the Congregations say or do. I am constantly lobbying Government and Opposition Ministers.
That is why the web http://www.paddydoyle.com is so useful, so informative, I get a lot of information in one hit!
I then absorb and convey back to the Women’s Group and to the mixed group at meetings or when I meet up with them.
SAMPLING ? As regards what I said in 2004 on sampling,I would love a copy of what I said or to be directed as to how I can obtain it.
Right now I don’t have a clue what sampling you are talking about. Tell me in what context I said it. Are you referring to the public investigation of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse?
Where I gave evidence on the same day as Christine Buckley? If you have info on that I would love to read it. Also at the same hearing the Christian brothers brazenly and shamefully defended everything they did.
On what are you basing your assertion that Coventry is the only Outreach providing a Service? Is this based on your visits there or on the service you received there or on some detailed knowledge you have of how the Services are run in Manchester, London and Coventry?
I know the workers in the London Office. I know how damn hard they work, how committed they are and how much those who have been assisted by them appreciate their professionalism and their compassion. So unless you are basing your assertions on facts your accusations are unkind and unfair and not true.
FIVE OUTREACH
In 2004 there were Outreach Services in Sheffield, Manchester, Haringey, Greater London and Coventry. I make that five outreach services in 2004.
After I ceased involvement in lobbying for the Outreach Services (once they were established, and up and running) I told the Department of Education I could no longer do the work as it was eating into my own job.
A new Post of Coordinator was created – (to do the work I did for previous years) A person was appointed to this Post.
The Post became vacant again a few months later. Apart from that, I am not willing to discuss any appointment or to discuss the business of any other individual. Its private to the person.
I am answerable only for my own actions.
Actually the money to pay for te Outreach Services is not coming from Redress (Unit) it is coming from the Dept of Education and Science Budget and ultimately the tax payer and until the Congregations pay up the Government will be obliged to continue to meet these costs at least I hope so.
I will get hold of the funding figure for 2009 and ry to make sense of it. I think contributors might find a breakdown of who gets what interesting. Yu can of course get hold of this yourself under FOI and then you might like tro share it with the rest of us .
Pauline , could you explain a bit more as I am not sure what point you are making
the place changed overnight . there was laughter in the playgrounds because the nice nun fromdonigaltook over an the last two years i spent there was a happy time .This was written by Christine Buckley some years ago so older people from the industrial schools dont understand why so many survivers seem so much younger. and the aisleen centre seems to be runing for them . i have askes questions on this site and i had an answer that washed away my doubts. but i dont know if it was a man or women who answered. In the same paper Christine says that she can call on many people to confirme what she is saying. but what thay themselves have to say i dont know . all this is part of the confusion
Sally
Thank you so much for your confidence in me to Lead
Unfortunately this isn’t possible on so many levels
I am English and write on paddy’s site as the widow of a Survivor
I am not Literate in the workings of the Irish Government (but have learnt a lot from you today Sally, Thanks)
I have a lot of health issues, regular injections to save my sight being just one
I know of my husbands sufferings, so can empathise with survivors, but am not qualified to represent them
The only campaigning I have done was for the homeless in London when I went out single handed with a petition and managed to save four council blocks from being sold off (not the right to buy) this was during the Thatcher era,
Being a passionate believer in justice for all, I would dearly love to help but at 67 and in ill health I’m afraid the only thing I have to offer is my opinion just like everyone else, and hope survivors and their families get the justice they/we deserve.
Hope you understand my Predicament Sally
Thanks Paddy for making a healthy debate possible
Kind Regards to all Kay
Paddy
Once again may I have te space to reply? Sally May
I think you have a point about notification and I am working on this to get volunteers to send out notices as we presently rely on the notification we give at the Womens meeting itself.
I have raised this as a concern and we are always looking for volunteers
but who is out there to do this work?. Sending out 400 notices takes time. Yet we always manage excellent turn outs at our meetings but if you could suggest ways we can improve that would be helpful.
In June this year or maybe it was May; you personally got up and thanked me for my work in public. . I appreciated it. You remember it was at a ROP meeting of ROP coming from Cork. I was surprised and grateful for your words of appreciation for efforts- now you say you don’t get notified!
As for not telling you about my work with older Irish people.
It is a registered charity; it holds huge meetings every year since 1994 at the London Irish Centre. We advertise and send out invites to all our clients. We have a mailing list of 3200 older Irish people. If you are not on it and welcome to put you on it, it is simply because you have never been a client and I don’t recall ever you coming to our office of the Irish Elderly Advice Network .
If you let me have your address I will put it on if you sign a consent saying t you with to receive mail. The organization I work for is very public, we advertise, we send out Newsletters, we run Services in North, the North West and Est London. Call me there 0207 428 0471
The Womens group is run by women in their spare time. They do not have any employees. Would you like to help out? Our mailing list is just over 400 people and every bit of help is well received.
Is it my fault that you don’t know about the existence of charities like the one that supports the Womens Group?
However the Trust that funds the Women’s group gave us £7000 this year but its running cost and not funds TO DONATE TO INDIVIDUALS.
We do not have any authority to do that this funding is to help us meet cost of four to five meetings of the Womens group per year , i.e. Catering, hall hire and administration, postage etc and the Trust meets one Christmas Lunch and one outing per year.
It also meets travel cost to meetings on business to do with survivors. Again before people rush to accuse , I meet all my own travel costs to our various meetings in the UK or Dublin. So to be absolutely clear the Trust does not meet or allow us to ‘give away charity’ to individuals. If they need advice we refer to the Outreach Services. .
May, you and I have had chats after the Women’s group meetings and you have made very powerful statements at the Women’s Group. I don’t get it that you do not know about them.
The Irish Elderly Advices network is my employer take it up with them if you don’t know about our services that are advertised everywhere. The charity commission also have a detailed description of our services. We also hold an AGM and next one so in Feb 2011 which attracts about 300 to 400 hundred elderly people. That you don’t know about it is hardly my fault. I am happy to send you our last two Annual Reports.
I look forward to seing yu at next Womens group mreeting. If you or anyone else wants dates and times of Womens meeting call 0207 916 7300.
Kathleen
What questions have I not answered?
You may not like my answer but don’t accuse me and say ‘sally has chosen not to answer’. Not true. Maybe you have chosen not to recognise or accept my answers. Try getting ANY answers out of other so called Survivors leaders.
It seems to me people like me who are genuinely motivated are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. I would happily walk away in the morning and leave this to people like you to come up with solutions. I dislike your sanctimonious tone. I am doing nothing wrong. I am driven only by my own personal determination that people like all of us should get justice and we should get respect. So hey, let’s start respecting each other.
Also what do you mean’ worked your way up’ Up to what? What hierarchy have we got? I don’t know or see anyone ‘in charge of us’. I don’t see myself as ‘down there’ or up there, or that I am in some kind of hierarchal structure.
This site of Paddy’s allows ups a chance to debate and discuss issues of interest and importance to survivors. We don’t need to look up to anyone-there is no leaders.
Let’s not debase it by implied stupid accusation like ‘Sally has chosen not to answer’
Tell me; give me one example of your questions answered by any of the following
Mick O Brien, John Kelly, Patrick Walsh, Mick Waters, Tom Hayes or any other recognised leaders not named here.
Why don’t they go public? And why don’t they specifically say what it is they do. I would love to know. . Perhaps you might use some of your energy and dogged determination to find fault by asking them to account for themselves and the vast sums of funding they deceived form the State AND the congregations. Challenge them.
I was not paid and never have run the Outreach Workers-an impossible task. I live in London; the Outreach Workers are currently in Manchester and Coventry and Greater London.
Yes its true, I have campaigned to set these Outreach Services up. ~I am, proud of what has been achieved, but I don’t and never have run them. I was involved in the appointments of the staff and insisted that on each appointment a Survivor was on the appointments panel.
It’s clear despite my previous long explanation that people still don’t get it and don’t get that these Services are not run by or for Groups, nor are they run by me.
They are professional Support Services. Would you like to visit it one. You can if thou wish spend a day there and at the Women’s Group to see for yourself what is done. .
You make me sound like some stranger ‘visiting Ireland’ I am home every few months for family and other reasons which I am not going to attempt to justify or explain. When I am there on Survivors business, I can tell you with absolute certainty and the evidence to prove it , that I go home AT MY OWN EXPENSE and in my own time. I am happy for you under the Freedom of Information Act to ask the Dept of Education, the Dept of the HSE and any of the Congregations if they have met one penny of my costs. You will find they have not but go on check it out, satisfy yourself. .
It’s quite annoying…I am doing my best to be straightforward withy you, it seems you are doing your best to find fault……..great.
Where is that going to get us?
As to me being paid to’ run the Outreach services…no I am not and was not in the past. You may be alluding to my public declaration of interest that I put on the web when I first became involved in campaigning to get recognition for UK Survivors in 2000 and my earlier work on raising the issue of the Laundry Women workers.
I worked and fought the Dept of Education and the HSE to secure recognition for survivors in Uk, I then went on to create a strategy for support and over the next four to five years managed to get the dept of education and the HSE and Irish Centres here to work together to ensure Survivors in Uk would get a service and be recognised. It took several meetings with Education and HSE to get an understanding of the need to set up support services here in UK.
Outreach Services as a solution was not what everyone wanted or expected. However as it turns out we have two options in the Uk , we either go to the Outreach Services for advice, support and information or we go to so called Survivors leaders who can give us the benefit of their wisdom. I know with absolute certainty where I would go to if I needed help or advice. None of the above.
After a five year battle I finally secured to Outreach Services in Manchester Coventry, greater London (2) and Sheffield.
Once these Services were in place I was satisfied if not very very tired from all the work it involved. I then wrote to the Education Dept sand said I could no longer do this job on a voluntary basis. It was affecting my own job as I was having so much time on it. I recommended they create a Coordinators Post. They did. I did not apply, did not want the job. It was filled by a Survivor and a few months later the Post was vacant again. I did not after that get involved.
The Dept of Education tried to encourage me to stay on but I declined as it needed someone able to take it forward full time. The Post has never been filled since.
Education then agreed at their own suggestions to recognise my work and to pay me a consultant’s fee for my five years of work. This was paid through the normal payroll at my place of work. I was satisfied with that since it was open, transparent and paid through the normal tax and national insurance system. In other words it was up there on record and I went on to declare the consultants fee in the financial year it was paid when I was elected a councillor. Check if you wish under FOI at the HSE its all there.
I guess this is what you are referring to and I make no apologies for accepting a consultant’s fee for five years of work not planned or asked for. I can tell you for the hours, days, weeks, months and years I put in I make no apologies for accepting it. Moreover the outreach Services that so many people benefited from and continue to do so are there because of my work.
Tell me why you don’t pursue those so called Leaders who have raked in thousands and thousands and little to show for it and ask them to account for what they have done. Or It is easier possibly to go for me …as I am prepared to be up front and say what it is I have done and what I got.
Since 2004 /5 I have not received nor want, nor will be looking for one cent, euro, or pound from the Department of Education, the HSE or any other government dept.
So let’s have debates and discussions about what matters and not just knock genuine people like myself because no one else is willing to take the flack or to be open with you. I have no ambitions to be Leader, or spokesperson or any other public position but I am determined to fight and be a voice for Survivors in the UK.
Cocktail and garden party- tell me more … absolutely no idea… don’t recognise where was this Garden Party? I do recall the Presidents reception. I do remember attending one Event at Right of Place and I do recall a delegation of which I was part organised by Mick Waters and (mysteriously, I felt at the time) paid for by a firm of Dublin solicitors looking for business. I have lobbied and visited the Dail several times. I was at the meeting with ‘/government in April. So is it any of them? Curious to know. AND by the way what was to be the purpose of this ‘cocktail party. ?
That’s it from me. I do hope we can in future exchanges move on to stuff that matters to survivors. I have suggested we try to find a way to unite and reach agreement between ourselves on the future…but sadly ‘having a go at me’ seems a much more entertaining option. Well you know what, I am not that keen to waste my time.
There are too many people out there who deserve a voice or two raised on their behalf. You are clearly able to do it so why not let us try that approach.
Sally you protest to much.
Like you Kay, I have never been contacted by any of the groups, and worked my way up.
I have asked questions of Sally , she has chosen not to reply.
As we understand, Sally was paid for running the Outreach workers. If this is incorrect please confirm.
When you visited Ireland a couple of years ago, remember the Cocktail Party correction “Garden Party” you I believe had a chosen group with you.
Kathleen O’Malley.
I have been living in Great Britian for more than 50 years and never knew there were all these so called charities where one could get help.
Like alot of other imigrants I left Ireland so I could get a better job other than skiving for other people.
As I came out of Goldenbridge with no education and no home I took a job living in.
MY POINT IS THIS.
Sally says she looks after elderly people She has never told me or my friends about this.
I am also a member of the womens group and I am never notified of any of the meetings.
May
Dear Paddy,
Thank you once again for allowing me space to answer. Its not always what people want to hear, but I am doing my best to be open, honest and frank with people.
Dear Crispina
Thank you.
Kay
Thanks for asking me questions I will do my best to answer.
Regarding the Irish Pension. Many thousands of Irish people aged 65 and over are in UK in receipt of Irish Pensions. We campaigned back in 2003 (I think) for older Irish people living here to have their pension contributions made before they left Ireland (prior to 1953) and after some time the Irish Government amended a piece of Pensions legislation to allow for Irish pensioners to
Apply for what was then called the pre 1953 Irish Pension. They got a Half Rate contributory pension.
It wasn’t much, but many Irish pensioners were very pleased to receive it and felt the Pre 1953 pension acknowledged that they had made a contribution to Ireland before they left and it was finally recognised.Since then the pre 53 has been merged with Irish Pensions payments made in the normasl way based on contributions.
In terms of the fight to obtain a Pension for the Laundry Women Workers, for me it is a point of principle. These Women worked as we all know ,in commercial enterprises run as business by the Congregations. It was absolutely criminal that they failed to pay them for their labour and failed to pay their Pension contributions. As a consequence I strongly believe that the Congregations should pay up.
I have had these discussions with one of the Congregations and suggested they employ an Actuary professional to calculate what the value of a Pension might be had the Congregations in these commercial laundries paid the Women and paid their contributions as every other employer did in order to meet their legal responsibilities.
Had they behaved lawfully these Women would like the thousands and thousands of Irish pensioners living in the UK today, have enjoyed the benefits of their owned earned Pensions and not have to rely on State subsidies like the Pension Credit you mentioned.
Another issue I would like to raise, if you don’t mind me linking it to your very helpful comments on Pension Credit.
The issue is about the call for the Women Laundry Workers to be awarded Redress, though not sure if this means that the people calling for it want these Women to go through the existing Redress Board or a new Redress Scheme just for these Women Laundry Workers.
Either way I have problems with it.
I would never again recommend anyone go to the Redress Board. I was one of the trusting people who believed the promise that the Redress Awards would be commensurate with High Court Awards, they were not. I also believed that the Redress Board Hearings would not be adversarial, they were!.
I abhor the gagging order and I abhor the way people were treated who challenged their miserable awards and found it was reduced more. I also feel that late applicants often those who were very ill or just very isolated were treated like criminals. They were disbelieved and they had almost mini trials.
So do we seriously want to campaign for Women Laundry Workers to be put through that at their age. Most of them are in their late 70- early 80’s.
The same opposition from me for any kind of dedicated or specific Redress Scheme.
I have worked closely within the Women’s Group with 8 to 10 of these Women, some I have met a few times, some I meet on a regular basis. They are absolutely adamant they do not want a Redress Settlement. They want by way of ‘Redress’ for the suffering they endured that the Congregations pay a substantial lump sum and to pay them a Pension for the remainder of their days and ABOVE ALL ELSE they want an apology and recognition of their suffering and recognition of their UNLAWFUL IMPRISONMENT. They know what they want and who are we to advocate for a different solution however well intentioned we are.
I gave evidence recently with Paddy to the Committee headed up by Tom Kitt TD and on behalf of those I was authorised to speak for i.e. Women Laundry Workers in the Women’s Group and I said lots to Tom Kitt and Michael Kennedy, but my main points were
Time is not on their side
They do not want a Redress Board solution
They want recognition of their suffering
They want an apology and justice.
I believe both TD’s were very genuine and I have been in touch since and also with Kathleen Lynch TD and there is a desire to find a way forward. I think however that we must keep pressing and keep campaigning for them.
I was astonished when recently somebody said to me that ‘including the Laundries in with us will reduce the money we (survivors) get’. Well a failure to bring justice to them is a failure to bring justice to any of us.
Can I also say I heard Mannix Flynn recently at a lecture make some very wise points?
If I understand what he says, I hope I do:
He pointed out that Redress was not Reprobation or compensation, redress does not address the issue of crimes committed -its half way between the two. Also, he said and again I hope I am quoting him right , though not word for word, he said that in the context of Amnesty Ireland (finally) looking at the issue of child abuse in Institutions, that ‘Ireland can be seen today alas a major crime scene’. Well if you take what the Christian Brothers perpetrated on a daily basis on innocent boys and young men, they committed crimes and there are their crime scenes all over Ireland. He also made a very interesting observation
We all refer to the Ryan, Ferns and Murphy Reports. Actually we should give the Ryan Report its full title the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. Remind ourselves that this proper title was set up to look at major crimes perpetrated on children for many many decades.
Kay
Back to the issue of paying pensions when it will impact on their means tested benefits. Yes, for those on means tested benefits it is an issue. However, for those of us living in the UK and in receipt of means tested benefits the Redress Payments were also not exempt and they were not exempt from tax either.
Back in 2001 again, along with others including TDs and MPs we pressed and pressed for Redress and benefits received by survivors to be exempt. Do you know what because it was redress and not ‘compensation for injury’ we could not get it exempt?
In order to protect peoples miserable Redress we negotiated with Trust Fund Mangers here and as many people reading this will know, it was the best safest and legal way to protect the Redress money. It allowed you to keep your benefits and at the same time access your Redress money when you needed it and it was all legal
Some very irresponsible Survivors leaders told people to ‘leave their money in Ireland’ or they told them not to declare. That was no help and watch them be around to support people who got caught.
I discussed this with an Irish civil servant recently in the context of the proposed Statutory Fund. I believe that the Irish Government really do need to ensure that those administering funds for UK survivors know the best ways to ensure Survivors in the UK will actually benefit and not be jeopardised.
You ask me what I thought of the proposal to fund a children’s hospital from Congregations funding or selling of properties and the additional complication of the Government perceiving ‘half of the receipts from properties handed over or sold’ I don’t pretend to understand it.
I think it is so very ironic and crushingly hurtful for survivors to see that this source of income from the Congregations to be handed over as reprobation ends up being used to build a much needed children’s hospital. It absolutely sticks in the craw and I know it has deeply offended people everywhere.
I read recently that Charlie Mc Greevey as Finance Minister once said when we (Ireland) have money (Celtic tiger era) Ireland’s spends it. It’s a great pity they did not build a hospital for Sick children then -they could have built one in each Province.
I have watched the debate on where the children’s hospital should be and I don’t really have a view on where as I don’t feel entitled to <I don’t live in Irelands. However it is clearly needed and if I had a vote I could not as a mother of four children, a grandma of five, I could not vote against. I know it’s not a yes or a no to the use of Survivors money but that’s how it is, some things are not straightforward. It is my honest opinion.
I guess also that the justice we all seek is not, nor should it be, solely about money.
Crimes, terrible crimes have been committed and hardly any of the perpetrators have been brought to justice.
Finally, I have been asked do I know when the proposed statutory Fund will be dealt with.
Clearly the Budget, the economy and now the long awaited election in Donegal will again delay the time table (I think no one has yet said so).
I rang the Dail Scheduling of Bills Section to find out of the Governments proposed Statutory Fund Bill was scheduled. No it wasn't though it was on the C Schedule list. I understand however that the Government only have to give two days notice, so that s a possibility it may happen very suddenly.
I understand the process will be a Draft Bill (presently been drawn up by Departmental officials) which will be presented to the e Dáil. If as is claimed there is ‘All Party Agreement’, the Bill could be debated and passed in two days. It is so important therefore that some united lobbying is done to get agreement on key issues.
The most important issue of all is who actually are we saying should be included (benefit?) from these proposals? Who do the Government consider they are talking about when they propose to establish a Statutory Fund?
Who will be eligible to apply?
We don’t even know if it is any or all of the following will be included.
• Those who went to the Redress only
• Those who lost out on Redress but entitled to be included in these proposals
• Laundry Women Workers.
• Those not eligible for Redress but who were abused in institutional care run by the same Congregations, under exactly the same regimes.
So when people say divide the money equally amongst all Survivors. Who are we talking about? What will be divided and how?
How do we ensure that Survivors who endure severe disability as a consequence of their childhoods , others who are frail, isolated, have serious mental health issues and care needs, others who live in sub standard housing, and others struggling to get by on social welfare payments, how do we ensure they are cared for the rest of their lives?
I don’t have the answers but I will say out straight, I don’t feel we should abandon the fight for them and I don’t believe the vast majority of people want to see that happening either. I know this is a controversial view and it would be interesting to see the reaction. However I challenge other so called leaders to be up front and honest and not lead people up the hill to be marched back down again.
Leadership is about taking responsibility and leading.
For all these reasons and because of all these unanswered questions, we need to unite, try and get consensus around some of these questions. We have very little time to do it.
I would love to hear suggestions as to how that can be done. I honestly have no faith in current so called 'Leaders' being willing or capable of putting the key issues forward. There is not one I want to utter one word to any Government Ministers or Opposition Members on my behalf.
Again there is an urgent need for leadership, for consensus and for people to try and unite if not this will sail through and even the issues we could have got our way on will be lost.
Again it seems to me Paddy, Kay should consider taking up the challenge to lead.
We should be lobbying now, and we should have an agreed approach. I am willing to do my bit from here.
Enough from me for now.
hello sally FIRST OF ALL THANK you very much for the information’ as i live abroad i don’t know anybody else from industrial schools in Ireland. most people wouldn’t know what i was talking about.So you see i get my only information on this site. and i had to buy my ordinator first. i have only had it for a few months. as for meeting christine buckley well i first met her the day she came to Gb.i have been looking for the first time whats beeing said about her by the vidios on internet. its very upsetting to see that thay have forgotten the hundreds of childrens who were put through hell . we have our memories too . there were thousands of us before chrissy came.So no i dont want to go to meetings in london or ireland to listen to her . we are adults now and all these people who speak for us speak from thier own point of view.You know i think that we have used up all our decretion by now . we should not be institutionalised like this and we are not all good at organising.Iadmire your energy but i dont have it myself.
Who carried out this survey? guaranteed those of us on this website knew nothing of it.
Not unlike the so called Vatican representatives interviewing Survivors of Abuse. Did it ever take place?.
Sally, why are you representing Survivors? Who has elected you and what is in it for you? if as you say you are not on the pay roll.
It has been asked if you were actually in an Industrial school?
You must be one of the few very good people on this PLANET who do deeds for nothing.
Kathleen O’Malley.
Thanks Paddy (e.a.)
Pleasure to read and meet thus, Sally! Thanks a lot for information given.
Haringey Outreach Services Worker Post ceased to function in 2009. The Outreach Worker left the Post. Due to failure to fund the Haringey Service it has to close down.
hi sally its still only a small per cent we should have gone to ballot over this trust fund !giving everyone of us a voice we are not being listened to yet again ,some one from the irish goverment should have come over to see each group and get their opinions for a change control is what its all about always has been !
PS anyone in receipt of pension credit in the UK is allowed up to £10.000 savings, without affecting other benefits.
Paddy
Once again , Thank you for giving me space. I so appreciate it.
Sally
In reply
I hope I have answered all the questions which I have tried to answer frankly and openly. I don’t however intend to keep up a response as if I have to justify my life and my activities carried out on behalf of the Women’s Group.
I am a survivor too and as said before lets try to appreciate each other and not be always looking for ways to accuse and attack each other. But thanks for giving me te chance to answer questions.
Outreach Services.
Sorry I am not responsible for the delivery of Service of the Outreach Services. However the recent Survey showed that 83% satisfaction with the Services.
If you live far away and can’t get to London meetings why not establish your own support network that is what I did because so many were cut off from each other. As for a tea shop -a silly remark, since if you have never been you cannot know how well and How the Women’s group functions. True we try to be positive, say and do positive things and not spend our precious time together In a negative way.
No one is in charge and no one is superior to another at these gatherings -they are informal and friendly and we treat each other with respect. Unlike some Groups I have attended over the years, we don’t ball and shout at each other. We have had excellent discussions and some very good Speakers to our meetings.
As Chair of Women’s Group I make it my business to reply to letters, emails and calls. I don’t ever recall receiving a letter from you Pauline. You may have completed the Survey which was not assessed by me but by a Researcher. If I get letters that are private matters and need urgent attention I pass them to the Outreach Services to deal with . I am neither employed nor qualified to deal with all the issues that come before the Outreach Services and individuals have a right to be treated with respect and get their issues dealt with confidentially and professionally.
No Newsletters, no meetings. Not true.
The Women’s Group has had four if not five Events/gatherings this year. This includes our AGM which Christine Buckley attended and a meeting to consider the proposals for the Memorial, the Statutory Fund and other meetings with other guest speakers including Mary Rafter which was very warm and successful.
All our meetings have an attendance book and all the evidence of who attends, minutes and discussions are written down. We have a record of attendance since the Women’s Group Started and what should be of concern is that we have had deaths of our Women which is very sad.
I have spoken to the Outreach Services regarding your comment about not getting letters. Anytime you want information, or A home visit or any Service that you can either come to the office for or they can come to you it can be arranged.
But, I have to say that their function is not to run Groups, write Newsletters, or hold meetings, their function as I have said already is to offer a confidential professional Service to any individual who contacts them. They will stay by you and support you until your issue is resolved. But it’s not a letter writing SERVICE AS SUCH. There is as well only one Outreach Worker for the whole of greater London and the South East and South West and if you know the UK that is a huge area to cover. I have seen the Outreach Worker travel miles in one day to reach very isolated Survivors and she gladly does it as her job, her profession and her commitment. She is as well a Survivor herself and like we should, we all treat her with respect for her commitment and dedication.
AS REGARDS YOUR BROTHERS REQUEST.
Obviously it is a private matter not for the pages of a web site, but if you want to let me know if your brothers claim is being dealt with by the London Office I will
Speak to the London Outreach Services. I am sorry that he is having such a bad time and after fifteen years in Artane, he must be entitled. But out of respect for your brother I don’t think we should write it out here. Failure to deal with his claim properly must lie with his lawyer and the Redress Board not with the Outreach Services who are not lawyers. I am happy to help in my work capacity where I deal with elderly Irish people all day every day. I am happy to give you my work number.
Tel 0207 428 0471
IRISH POST UPDDATE
The Irish Post update is wrong-the information is incorrect.
I helped to negotiate the establishment of Outreach Services with the Dept of Education. It took almost two and a half years of consultations and discussions before we finally were able to obtain funding to ensure Survivors in the UK were receiving support.
We did not get a huge amount of funding but nevertheless we have had very good service from te Outreach Workers -though I think too many people mix up their role and their work with that of Group Leaders . They are Outreach Services to support individuals not run Support Networks or any other kind of pressure Groups.
There are not eight Support Workers but presently there are two in London, a vacant post in Manchester since November 2009 when their very excellent Outreach Worker left. Due to insecurity of funding from the Dept of Education the work in Manchester is presently being done partly on a voluntary basis and partly by other staff from Irish Community Care. Haringey (North London) has not had a full time Outreach Worker for some time and has dealt with it through the employment of a part time Worker/Administrator. Again due to insecurity of funding, the Haringey Irish Centre has closed down the Outreach Services, hopefully not on a permanent basis but until funding is resolved with the Dept of Education.
There is no Support Group in Haringey -never has been. The Irish Women’s Support Network covers the whole of Greater London and the South East but again it is a Group open to any Women Survivor living anywhere in the UK to join. Again, it is important to stress that there is no one employed full time, part time or for any hours at all by the Women’s Support Group. We have four people elected annually by an AGM to be Chair, Secretary, Treasurer and one general member. ALL ELECTED annually by the Women members at the AGM.
So presently we have two Outreach Workers, and three Admin Workers to cover the whole of the UK.
Haringey by the way is just a small Borough in London North. Manchester covers the whole of the North West, Coventry covers the Midlands and London covers the Greater London Boroughs and the South East.
The figures you quote for funding I take it this is the funding received since they set up the Services in 2001? Or are you suggesting this is funding for a particular year?
I cannot comment upon in any detail or with any knowledge since I have no involvement in negotiating funding from the Dept of Education. This is done by the management of the London Irish Centre, Manchester Irish Community Care, and Coventry Irish Society and until recently, Haringey Irish Centre.
The Dept of Education deal directly with these Centre’s. You will know under Freedom of Information you can get exactly what is funded at any time. I have not tried because I am too busy and I am more interested in supporting and being with Survivors Networks then in how they are funded. Just for your info the Education Dept also decided to fund the Federation of Irish Societies -again I did not see their application and I cannot answer or tell you what that funding specifically is for. FOI would tell you.
What Group do I represent?
I was elected Chair for the past two years for the Irish Women Survivors Support Network. I founded this Group in 2001 and if you see my response to Kathleen you will see why. I genuinely do my best to represent and all our meetings, records and if you spoke to any of the Women who regularly attend they will tell you, these meetings/gatherings are to share time together, to inform people, not to ‘supervise’ or lecture them. We have had enough of that. . I have had constant excellent support and feed back.
Why do I do it? I believe we have not yet had justice, not yet had a fair settlement and I do it because I have been there and I feel a very strong attachment to people who have been there too.
Who pays me?
Well as I said before I work for a living. I run a Charity for Irish Elderly people who are funded by the Emigrant Support Programme and I have been employed there since 1994. We used to operate from premises in North London, but since 2005 we have been operating as a Charity -Irish Elderly Advice Network at the London Irish Centre. It is one of several Irish Agencies that are based at the London Irish Centre. We are not employed however by the Irish Centre. Three staff members work there including me and I am paid in the normal way a wage for my work.
My role in running the Irish Women’s Network since 1994 is voluntary. The Group receives very modest under £10,000 funding from a Trust and they lay down very strict guidelines for how te funding is spent. All of this funding expenditure is on record and can be and will be told to the Women’s Group at the next meeting. No mystery there.
Again under FOI you are entitled to know what people who are so called Survivors leaders get paid. I am quite happy for you to ask. As for being refused entrance to the Women’s meeting, I have no idea why. We never ever refuse Women in fact we are always delighted to see new Women coming along. When did this happen and was it the Women’s Group? Where did it happen? So far all the meetings of the Women’s Group have taken place in the London Irish Centre. Do let me know as it would be helpful to make sure this does not happen again.
Yes Sally agreed, we do all need to be nicer to each other,but this is easier said than done,there are a lot of survivors struggling to make ends meet and feel embittered by the Treatment of this Government and the groups who claim to represent them, this might not have been the case if the Redress board had treated survivors fairly and with respect in the first place,an interim payment could have been paid to survivors until the Ryan report was complete,and now what a mess,the Irish Government is intending to thrust upon us a trust fund that no-one except the groups appear to want,
I am also curious to know how an Irish pension will help survivors claiming Guarantee pension Credit in the UK,this is designed to make sure that people over the minimum state pension age (rising from 60 to 65 between 2010 and 2020) have a guaranteed level of pension,surely any additional pension will be deducted from this or other benefits
The Government also intends that cash received as part of the additional contribution will be used as a contribution to the planned National Children’s Hospital do you agree with this?
I am opposed to any form of trust fund and believe all additional contributions made should be paid directly to the survivors.
Regards Kay
IF WE LIVE TO FAR AWAY FROM LONDON WE CANT GO TO THESE MEETINGS. AND SINCE ANSWERING INQUIERES DOES NOT WORK FROM THIER SIDE WHAT IS THE POINT. IT SOUNDS MORE LIKE TEA SHOPS FOR MEMBERS . IF THAY ARE NOT TREATED LIKE SUPIERIES THAY START PUNISHING. EXAMPLE NO NEWSLETTERS. AND NO ANSWERS TO LETTERS . MY BROTHER WAS REFUSED COMPENSATION AFTER 15 YEARS IN ARTAINE. I HAVE BEEN VERY WORRIED ABOUT HIM SINCE THEN . BUT I STILL DO NOT GET INFORMATION FROM THE CAMDEN OFFICE. AND THE LAST TIME I HEARD FROM HIM HE WAS GOING THERE OFTEN .ITS FRUSTATING AND PAINFULL.
Yes all is true, I was in two catholic church orphanages in Christchurch New Zealand for 24years and I too started working on their farms at the age of 5years, with a nun walking behind me, if I dare to drag the big bad of potatoes, a long the ground behind me.
Abuse and sexual abuse happened in these homes as well and we are still affected by our childhood abuse, still today. No one to go to for help, no where to hide from these men and women of God. No hand to hold, no one to dry my tears then and still now, I weep my tears of pain, terror and fear, I live my childhood abuse, every day and the catholic church does not care. Ann
Dear Paddy
Please would you let me reply to some questions and points raised by my comment, thank you.
Sally
To Kathleen .
Firstly, I am not using this site to provide you with a history of my involvement with Survivors over the past ten years nor my work with Women who went through the imprisonment of the laundries which I have also been involved with for more then a decade.
The fact that you have not heard about me, or I about you, is because I don’t make a habit of racing to the media, to the newspapers or draw public attention for what I do. I am not interested in that approach and I am sic to death of seeing
So called Survivors Leaders talking endlessly to the media and becoming the story instead of keeping the issue focused on getting justice and a fair settlement for us all including the Women who endured imprisonment and forced Labour in those laundries. I want justice too as I am sure you do for the people who missed out because they were late applying to the Redress Board and I want to see justice for all those people who were excluded completely because the institutions they were in were not included on the (Schedule) list of institutions for the Redress Act.
As for the Outreach Services.
I do not work for the Outreach Services. I am not employed by the Outreach Services. The Outreach Services are not there to organise Events. Also if you live in the UK and you let me have your address I will make sure you get notified of the Women’s meetings which I chair.
There are four Outreach Services providing for advice, support and information to any Survivors wishing to access them for assistance. It is a confidential Service
And is offered by professional staff in the Outreach Offices located presently in Manchester, London and Coventry. These Outreach Services see people in the privacy of their homes, or in the offices of get Outreach Services, in fact wherever they prefer to be assisted.
The Outreach Services are located in Irish Community Centres and the staffs do not handle any of the funding, nor do they handle any of the applications for funding t the Dept of Education.
The Outreach Services provide some support to Support Groups, for example they will help organise venues and catering and publicity for meetings. But they are not there to administer or serve these Groups.
The primary purpose of the Outreach Services
Is to provide confidential support and assistance in a dignified professional way to individuals. They are not there to run Groups, Socials or Outings. If the Groups want to do that they can.
I helped set up the Outreach Services in 2001 , I did so in response to the need for Survivors in the UK to be given advice, assistance and support to make applications to Redress, to Education Trust, trace families, and undertake a whole range of support to Survivors who had no where to go. It has worked as best it can give the size of the UK and the fact that the funding from the Education Dept in Dublin was very modest. Meeting just the cost of one Outreach Worker and one Admin worker in each of the Outreach Services I fought hard to get more Outreach Services which I believe we should have in Luton, Liverpool, Scotland and Yorkshire where we have very large Irish communities. However, the Dept of Education will only fund the Outreach in Manchester, Coventry and London and as you can imagine – there is no realistic possibility that these Outreach Services are reaching everyone who needs it.
So when so called Survivors Leaders called for them to be closed down, I asked tem what they would put in place of these Outreach Services. They have no answers. These Leaders would not be capable of providing the kind of thorough professional and understanding support provided by the Outreach Services. If I needed support they would be the last persons I would go to. I have no confidence in their ability to deliver anything of any benefit to any Survivor.
So in terms of your question what do I do, I
Do lots. I do it as I think you do, in a voluntary capacity. I do so because I believe in justice and I do so because I believe that we need to support each other in a caring unabusive way. I do so also because I have the experience and skills to do so and am honoured and privileged to be able to use my skills in support of my brothers and sisters with whom I share the common experience of 16 years in various institutions.
I founded the Irish Women’s Support Group in 2001 in response to numerous requests from women to have their own space as women to share their experiences and to talk and support each other. It works well and
We have roughly about 50-60 women come to our meetings which take place 4/5 times a year. You are very very welcome to come and see for yourself how pleasant these gatherings are and how so many women find the gatherings very comforting. Many of the Women also go to other gatherings, for example to the mixed Group and other meetings organised by groups based around the Coventry and Manchester Outreach. Women do not restrict themselves to the Women’s group and are free to go wherever they like.
At the Women’s meeting I make a special point of bringing to the meeting any relevant, factual and useful information that is of benefit. It is here that Women find it helpful to get reliable information. I am not frightened to say that I monitor constantly the Government and Congregations initiatives / statements of Ministers, information coming from the Dept of Education or the HSE and so when I go to the Women’s Group, I don’t waste peoples time and I make a conscious effort to ensure they are getting truthful, and reliable information even at times if its not what they want to hear.
Besides all that stuff, I make a special point of supporting individual survivors who ask my advice, my help or just want to talk.
I have on behalf of the Women’s group made submissions recently to the Memorial Committee, to the Dept of Education regarding the proposed Trust Fund, to the Irish Bishops Conference, to the All Party Committee headed up by Tom Kitt TD looking at the status of the Women who were imprisoned in the Laundries.
I have spent an average of three days a week in voluntary endeavour in support of a cause I care, (as I am sure you do) deeply about and will fight for as long as it takes to get justice and a fair settlement .
With regard to your application for a contributory state pension, I work as a Director of an Older Irish person’s charity and we deal with applications like yours every day. I would be happy to get your application looked at again Kathleen if you wish. There may not be anything we ca do but we can try.
In relation to the Laundry Women I have been in communications with Sligo Pensions office and the Congregations who ran the laundries
for over ten years now , and I have also pressed the All Party Committee that is looking at this issue to push for pensions for these Women who worked in commercial laundries where profits were made and returned not to the workers (slave labourers) but to the Congregations. Their exploitation must be in breech of the Human Rights charter.
I have met Paddy quite a few times and in my view he is one of the few people involved in this whole area whose judgement
I trust and who has shown time and again that he has integrity and has the intellectual capacity to lead. I support the many calls for him to take up some leadership role and it would not be before time.
I know this is long but I hope it in part answers the question what do I do for Survivors.
To Bernadette
The figure of 4800 that have accessed the Outreach Services co incidentally matches almost the numbers of Survivors living in the UK who applied to the Redress Board.
I don’t know much about stats but what I understand is that the 4 Survey was sent out to approximately 400 people in total.
4800 people were not canvassed there are not the people or the resources to do this large scale Survey.
At least another 40 to 50 individuals phoned
Their comments and between the meetings that took place in Manchester, London (2) and Coventry a significant number of Survivors took part. It was according to the Researcher who did the analysis round about 31 to 32% response. The Surveys results have been submitted to the Education Dept and I understand all submissions will be published soon, so you can see for yourself.
In any case for me the most significant point is that all four surveys call for the Women who were imprisoned in the Laundries to be included.
Few people here want to return to Ireland but they want support to have holidays at home that are offered at a reduced rate. There’re other important findings and I would be happy to send you the Women’s survey if you wish.
To Kay
Thank you for our kind words. We could all do with being a lot nicer and kinder to each other then we are . Would you agree?
Bernadette has raised some very good points and I for one am in total agreement with her.
what about the two hundred million euro,s that is going on a childrens hospital ? we are again no longer children so we dont need it ? and if we had needed it as children well enough said!
if there are 4,800 survivors uk the 400 is less than 10 per cent of all uk survivors giving their opinion on the trust fund we never wanted this and still dont ,over the next 5 years some survivors will have passed on where will their share go? education all ready in place as is councelling ,pension anyone excepting a pension may well loose in other ways over here !we have been trying to get our voices heard for a very long time !the goverment seem to forget we are adults now ,no longer children who have to stay quiet !the trouble is we are still not being listened to are we ?
In 2006 I applied to “State Pensions, Sligo, Ireland.
Having worked for eight years in Moate under the control of the so called “Lovely Sisters of Mercy” on leaving the Industrial School I was as most of us were qualified to do menial tasks, such as Scrubbing floors, Polishing all surfices, Darning, Plucking Chickens , Washing up, Laundrey Ironing, Mending all clothes, working in the Far Fields tending to the Crops to mention but a few.
On my return to the real world I was totally inadequite. My first job was as you would expect was in domestic Service. This continued until I left for the England. I continued in my Professional Capacity as a Chambermaid.
A qualifying condition for a State Pension (Contributory) in Ireland, is that you must have at least 260 paid full rate contributions before my 66 birthday. According to their records I had a total of 24 paid full rate social insurance contributions.
I was refused a Pension on their findings.
I did not qualify for this Pension as the said department were not satisfied
How many more are there who have been refused.
The Religious should pay my Pension if the Government will not.
I intend taking this further.
M/s Mulready,
What have you actually done for the Survivors. I have never been notified of any events organised by the Outreach Workers, I know you have my details as I attended an interview directed by you and your panel some years ago. Perhaps you could enlighten me ?
Kahleen O’Malley.
Hi Sally
My comment in no way was was meant to offend you and the good work you do, my use of the word “con” was meant for the Irish Government who could with a will,have carried out a fully comprehensive survey involving all survivors but instead will choose to listen to a small number of representative groups whilst the vast majority still have no voice!
Regards Kay
(widow of survivor)
Paddy
Thank you for highlighting Tribune article. It is especially so as we cannot get the Sunday Tribune here in UK.
Just to follow up on various comments made in your site. .
The Survey mentioned in the Tribune is only one of four different Surveys carried out amongst Survivors in the UK. Other Surveys were carried out in Manchester and North West, Greater London and South East, and Coventry and Midlands. Almost 400 people took part, but the Tribune article covers just one Survey undertaken by the Irish Women’s Support Network. So I would say to Kay , it is actually , as Surveys go, comprehensive.
Why did we do these Surveys?
The background to why we were forced to do these Surveys is important.
In effect we were doing essential work that should have been done under the auspices of the Department of Education. At the risk of being left out completely by a Government that might be unaware of the issues, needs and concerns of Survivors forced to flee Ireland; and now living in the UK. These Surveys were carried out to ensure our voices were heard and that the Government would be advised of what our views and our wishes are.
We should not have had to do this important work, but its done and there is no excuse for ignoring us. Over 400 people took part in four different Surveys and it was quite amazing that the Surveys carried out in very different parts of the UK , found that Survivors had the same issues, the same concerns and the same frustration and disappointment about The Government’s approach . Nor did they feel there was enough concrete information as to what is really intended by the creation of this Statutory Trust Fund. .
Let’s look at the information we do not have about this proposed Trust Fund.
To this date there is very little information about this so called Statutory Trust Fund beyond vague references to a Trust for ‘education, counselling and health’.
Who will the beneficiaries of this Trust be? We don’t know. There is no information or any clarity at all on who actually will be the beneficiaries of this proposed Trust Fund. For example we are not being told if this Fund will allow those who were excluded from the Redress Scheme, e.g. Laundry women, those who were late applying will be included. Will those abused by the same nuns, Christian Brothers and others, BUT whose institutions were not listed in the Redress Act continue to be excluded.
How will the Statutory Trust be administered? We don’t know. We have very little knowledge of the way this proposed Statutory Trust Fund will be administered.
The only thing the Government appeared very clear about in April was that these proposals had All Party Agreement. However Opposition TD’s have to some extent put a distance between themselves and the Government on this position.
We are told the Congregations will handover payments over a Five Year period.
Will they? Do you believe this.?
The Government are naively relying on the Congregations to adhere to an agreement to handover the £110m. We all know that the Congregations record of handing over payments is not good . . Any agreement must enforce by law a specific time table for handover by the Congregations. .
Also, I find the Congregations tone in their so called ‘offer letters’ is patronising. This is not charitable donations being handed over, but reprobation for crimes committed on children and young people by members of their various Orders
August 2010 the Government advertised
So in the absence of so much important detail, in August 2010 the Government advertised and invited people, organizations, groups, individuals, voluntary organizations to submit their views on a proposed Statutory Fund.
We could have just ignored this request but this would have led to the views, concerns and wishes of UK based Survivors being unknown, ignored and ultimately
We would have ended up with people –so called Leaders, living in Ireland, with very little knowledge of UK based Survivors deciding to speak on our behalf.
Well frankly we had enough of that for past ten years. They have no knowledge of us and what might be relevant in Cork or Kerry or Dublin may not be relevant to UK based Survivors. They have no mandate. The Government now have a comprehensive set of Surveys completed by almost 400 UK based Survivors and we just cannot be ignored. We have a right to be respected and our views and wishes considered.
It will be interesting to everyone that the number one priority of all the Surveys carried out that we want the issue of the Laundry Women addressed and if there is no justice for them, then none of us have justice.
So where do we go from here? Well given the economic situation it is not surprising that the Government have not yet gone to the Dail as promised with their proposals. When I last checked with the Department I was told the Submissions were still being read and considered. But these situations have a way of changing fast and so we need to be vigilant, keep our eye on the Government Bills going to the Dail and make our views known. Burying heads in the sand and saying it shouldn’t happen is pointless, the Government will implement anyway. That is why we undertook the Surveys because we will not allow all this to happen without raising our voices and under the circumstances doing our best to ensure our voices were heard.
.
Paddy,
Kindly thanking you for allowing us survivors etc to air their opinions from which we all have different views I might add. I must mention the Women’s group is fantastic and theraphetic and is open to every woman living in the UK who is a Survivor and we make them so welcome. From the voice of experience. There is also a mixed group for the fellas are welcome and come along on the 20th Nov at the Camden Irish Centre @ 12.00.
Maria Theresa.
couldnt agree with you more pauline a pension for all thats the least they could do
Many of us started work from the begining. no matter what age in g b it was as soon as we could use a plyers. i remember working at 6years of age and i worked for nearly 9 years . i believe thay owe us a pension.At the very least
PS, correction to my last comment, I meant to say 4.800 approx – Kay
Whilst I feel great sympathy for the survivors of Ireland’s Catholic Industrial schools, i.e., “child gulags” (and like the vast majority of Irish people everywhere I didn’t grow up in one of those child-labour camps) I honestly believe that any adult who expects to get justice from the Catholic Church is seriously deluded. Those fuckers are SO sociopathic they don’t give a damn about their victims – and they NEVER will!
Hi Paddy
I don’t know how this can possibly be called a COMPREHENSIVE survey with just 122 respondents out of approximately 1.600 U.K abuse “survivors”, one definition of comprehensive is, of large scope; covering or involving much!
This in my opinion is just another con!!???
Best Regards Kay
I think actually children were put to work immediately they entered these institutions – most were put to work at age 6. I remember sacking being tied around my legs and knees and then being marched into fields to weed the drills …. we were in the field until 12:00 noon or shortly afterwards as we had to recite the angelus – which I didn’t know, and which I received a few clouts on my head and face for my ignorance from the nun! In Ferryhouse children were put to work at age 8 years in the Workshops – ShoeShop, TailorShop, Knitting Shop – the Bakery, the Farm ….. all this work doesn’t include the ususal polishing, shining, laundry, sweeping work which we all had to do as well.