The Irish Times – Friday, November 4, 2011
PADDY AGNEW
ANALYSIS:
Decision to close our Vatican Embassy represents a major “cooling” in the once close and intimate Dublin-Rome relations
THE DECISION to close the Irish Embassy to the Holy See clearly represents good housekeeping but, equally, it has huge historical and political significance.
At the end of a summer marked by unprecedented tensions between Ireland and the Vatican over the Cloyne report, the decision represents a significant “cooling” in the once close and intimate Dublin-Rome relations.
Asked last night if the Holy See considered itself “offended” by the Government’s decision, senior Vatican spokesman Fr Federico Lombardi declined to comment. Such decisions, he said, were a matter for the Government. While the Vatican spokesman went out of his way to acknowledge the economic considerations underpinning the Irish decision, the reality is this is a move that has serious political implications.
In practice, there are two types of Holy See ambassadors – those who have their own embassies in Rome and those who work out of the embassy in a neighbouring country such as France, Switzerland or Malta.
Senior Vatican diplomats point out that as far as the Holy See is concerned, the former are Serie A ambassadors, while the latter are most distinctly Serie B. Put simply, if you want to show some proper respect and courtesy to the Holy See, then you had better maintain a separate embassy to the Vatican in Rome.
Ever since the 1929 concordat, the Vatican has mounted a zealous guard on the independence of its 100-acre, landlocked sovereign city-state enclave in the heart of Rome. First time Irish visitors, on discovering the Irish State runs (or ran) two diplomatic missions in the city – one to the Holy See and the other to the Italian state – often express surprise. Surely, they ask, a small country such as Ireland could make do with just one embassy which would handle relations with both the Vatican and Italy?
However, the point about the dual missions in Rome (and many other countries have two embassies here) is that they owe their existence to the Holy See’s desire to separate itself from the Italian state. It is the Holy See that refuses to accept an ambassador who is working out of the same building as the ambassador to Italy.
To some extent, the question goes back to first World War days when there was only one national embassy in Rome. When both Austria and Germany, then at war with Italy, withdrew their diplomatic representation, the Holy See found itself without German or Austrian interlocutors. In its finely tuned Jesuitical thinking, the Holy See objected to ambassadors being withdrawn because, while Italy might have been at war with Austria and Germany, the Holy See was not.
Countries which, whether through political choice or financial constraint, opt not to have a separate Vatican embassy usually end up “tagging on” Holy See responsibilities to their ambassador in a neighbouring country. The Holy See takes a dim view of this practice and the ambassador in question is very much a second-class citizen on the Vatican diplomatic circuit.
All of this was something the post-war Irish ambassador to the Holy See, Joseph Walshe, understood all too clearly. He inherited an embassy close to the central railway station where lorries, trams and trolley buses trundled by on a 24-hour basis. Mr Walshe in 1946 reported to Dublin that Ireland should upgrade its quarters, quoting the opinion of then US special representative, Myron Taylor, who said: “Ireland has a very special position in the Catholic world and in Rome and should have an Embassy worthy of Ireland.”
Given the green light, Mr Walshe came up with the goods in the shape of the splendid, 17th-century Villa Spada on the Gianicolo hill overlooking Rome. It has played its part in some intriguing chapters in Italian history, given that Garibaldi had used it briefly as his headquarters in 1849 while in more recent years it was home to the Agnelli (Fiat) family during the second World War.
Bought for $150,000 in 1946, Villa Spada is now worth millions. It functions not just as the residence of the Irish Ambassador to the Holy See but also houses the mission’s offices.
Logic decrees the Embassy to the Italian state would move into Villa Spada, thus saving on the heavy rent paid for the premises rented for that embassy. This move was confirmed last night, along with a decision to have the secretary general at the Department of Foreign Affairs act as Ambassador to the Vatican, servicing it from Dublin.
Other European countries, including Sweden and Estonia, have their ambassadors to the Vatican based in their national capitals.
In answer to a parliamentary question in 2009, minister for foreign affairs Micheál Martin reported that the two Embassies in 2008 had cost €2.4 million (Italian state) and €800,000 (Holy See). The much greater expenses incurred by the State Embassy are explained by the rent, while Villa Spada’s expenses are limited to personnel and upkeep.
This cost cutting measure, however, comes at a price. Not only does it highlight a cooling in relations with the Holy See but it also means Ireland is cutting itself off from one of the modern world’s best “listening posts”, given that the Vatican has an unparalleled and extensive worldwide network of contacts, intelligence and information.
In the current economic climate, however, the Government clearly feels that this is a regrettable, but acceptable sacrifice.
Also its the only state full of men and wemen with a age of consent fixed at 12 years old.these people have vows to keep so this is for when thay are outside the vatican. it could be dangerous for children of both sexes
Hopefully moves to get the the Irish Embassy to the Holy See reopened will fail.
The Holy See is masquerading as a state and thus has no right to let the Irish Taxpayer fund an embassy. Please search for Robertson’s The Case of the Pope on Amazon.
How is honouring a religious entity that would ban even the poorest of people from protecting themselves from HIV, that would ban abortion if death from pregnancy was still as common today as it once was, that would impose censorship on criticism of the Catholic faith, that does not ensure that Sunday collection money actually ends up lodged in the bank, that had to be forced to implement child protection, that claims the right to force a boy to confess the sin of masturbation to a priest on pain of everlasting punishment, supposed to do anything for human rights? It has no credibility for a start!
Anyone who feels or knows that information on them is being held without their consent can and should make a complaint to the Data Protection Commissioner. Click here http://dataprotection.ie/docs/Home/4.htm to access the Commissioner’s website where you can make a complaint. Paddy
Hey you all did you know that
SURVIVOR’S CHILDREN WERE LEFT OUT OF ANY DEALINGS REGARDING GRANTS FOR EDUCATION? BECAUSE OF THEIR AGE,
YES THESE SICK MINDED PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO REPRESENT SURVIVORS OF (((((CHILDHOOD)))) ABUSE ACTUALLY LEFT (((( CHILDREN)))) OUT IN THE COLD AS SO DID THE GOVERNMENT AND THE RELIGIOUS.
WHAT A VERY VERY SICK BUNCH OF HYPOCRITES, DISGUSTING, AND DOWN RIGHT MINDLESS HEARTLESS.
NEGLECT NEGLECT NEGLECT ALL OVER AGAIN AND BY SO CALLED SURVIVOR GROUPS AT THAT.
NO EDUCATION EQUALS NO DEVELOPMENT, NO DEVELOPMENT NO EDUCATION
Well during all thier stay in ireland thay never interfered in state affairs. Even knowing that the children working in these places had been sent by the courts as criminals. numbered locked away from thier familys. the vatican embassy did nothing to stop this instead thay used us as a money spinnerthay should have acted when some children were carried into court because thay hadent started walking yet. but no thay did not. and the state were free to do whatever thay wanted.thay abandoned the people and filled thier banks.
Whatever the government’s reason, I am thrilled. Enda Kenny and this government just keep on surprising me (nicely).
I was listening to some guy on the radio talking about this this morning, and my heart just sank when I heard him say how sad this was. It’s almost like the victims of this institution do not exist.
Does the part about the ‘listening posts’ and ‘intelligence’ seem a bit strange to anyone else?. Why would the vatican need such a facility? Are they listening out for the voice of God or what?
By the way folks always remember it was the taxpayers who built,paid for these places out of their own hearts as charity, AFTER they paid their taxes and it was their children who suffered at the SAME HANDS who made and maintained them with their childhood, so it all belongs to the people in the first place NOT the Government.
We need to see this as the truth,
THESE INSTITUTIONS WERE BUILT AND MAINTAINED BY THOSE WHO ALREADY PAID THEIR TAXES. SO THEIR CHILDREN OF THESE INSTITUTIONS SHOULD HAVE THE SAY NOW IF WE LIKE IN A DEMOCRACY AT ALL.
SO ALL FINANCES BELONG TO THE PEOPLE’S CHILDREN WHO WERE IN THESE INSTITUTIONS. THESE INSTITUTIONS WERE NOT BUILT BY TAXES, BUT BY THE CHARITY OF THOSE WHO GAVE WILLINGLY FROM THIER OWN POCKETS.
THE VERY NATURE OF SURVIVORS USED AS CHILDREN GATHERING MONEY ON THE PLATE PASSED AROUND AND THROUGH THE WHOLE CHURCH.
It is getting very misleading, the media once again cover these stories but no one has yet highlighted the suffering of survivors to date.
This is all about the government saving money thats all, there simply is no proof that says it is about what has happened throughout irish history, if so they would never have had an embassy, now they can no longer run torture chambers due to being exposed they have no place in modern ireland.
So the Government is claiming all their finances back.
This is how they could have got their 500 million back in the first place, but to take everything of the 600 million from religious contributions and leave the survivors with a mean 100 million then place the education fund counseling family tracing onto the so called statuary fund leaves nothing much for welfare of survivors.
The Government now saved even more money on top of the 500 million they took from the religious with not one word about paying toward the damages done to survivors.
They will still want that land and all the money they claim as their 50% towards paying the redress.
this is just their own bonus by closing down and saving the tax payers money.
Closing down all expenditure to the religious was and should have been the proper way for them to make back the costs of redress and save the tax payers money, and the answer to these kind of religious run institutions.
this would have been the right and fair way of dealing with it all in the first place.
then they would have covered the costs of all redress paid by the tax payer and finally sold the assets and divided it all with survivors and their families to cover the life time damage done.
It is past time these men of god went home to the Vatican and stay there.
SS Sedes Sacrorum (Latin Sedes for seat/see, Sacrorum for holy) otherwise known as Santa Sede and the “SS” also known in English as “Holy See” refers to the legal apparatus as a whole by which the Roman Catholic Pope and its Curia of Bishops claim historical recognition as a sovereign entity with superior legal rights. The Roman Cult which controls the Catholic Church maintains that the first person to use the concept of the Holy See was St. Peter. This of course, is impossible as the etymology of the word “Sedes” (See) and its associated meaning were not in existence until hundreds of years after the execution of St. Peter in 70 CE at the Siege of Jerusalem.
The first use of the word “see” was as the informal name of the forged “Chair of St. Peter”created by the monks of St. Denis Abbey, Paris on behalf of Pepin the Short around 748 in anticipation of his coronation and proof of the legitimacy of the Pippin claims in creating the Catholic Church. It comes from the Old French word sied and sed which in turn comes from the Latin sedem (nom. sedes) meaning “seat, abode” and also sedere “to sit”. The formal name for the chair was (and still is) Cathedra Petri–literally “chair of St. Peter”
When the chair was created at St. Denis, so was the legal concept of the chair literally representing the legitimate sedes or “seat” of power of the Vicarius Christi. This was in direct confrontation to the legal position of the Primate and Patriarch of Constantinople claiming to be the sedes or “seat” of Christianity.
The legal fiction known as Ex Cathedra (literally meaning “from the chair… of St. Peter”) implying infallibility was not an original intention when creating the forgery. Instead, the heretical concept of infallibility did not appear until much later centuries.
http://one-evil.org/entities_organizations/evil_org_holy_see.htm