Religious orders seek millions in legal costs
Conor McMorrow and Shane Coleman
THE religious orders criticised in the Ryan report into child abuse are demanding tens of millions of euro in legal fees for appearing before the inquiry.
While the orders are close to a final agreement with the government to make additional contributions of €100m plus properties to the redress scheme, the Sunday Tribune has learned that the Department of Finance has been notified that the orders have applied to have their massive legal bills arising from the Ryan inquiry covered by the taxpayer.
Given the central role of the orders in the inquiry, it is thought their legal costs could far exceed €40m.
The move has been slammed by Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny who said: “Just because it is legally correct does not make it morally justifiable.”
Kenny said: “If these reports are correct and the religious orders are seeking substantial legal costs from the Ryan Commission it is truly astonishing. At a time when the state is starved of cash, where vital services are left unfunded and ordinary families are being made pay ever more taxes, the idea that the people that created the need for the Ryan Commission are now going to seek their costs is unbelievable. Even if the legislation provides for this course of action just because it is legally correct does not make it morally justifiable.”
An estimate last year by the state’s financial watchdog, the Comptroller and Auditor General, said third party legal costs arising from the Ryan Commission could top €80m.
It is understood that the issue, including the final figure on the extra contributions to the redress scheme, may come before cabinet as early as this week. All government ministers have been circulated with a memo on the matter in recent days.
The Sunday Tribune understands that the final cash offer made by the religious orders tops €100m, along with major property transfers. This is on top of the €127m in cash and property they stumped up in the 2002 deal that limited their liability, and which was a fraction of what the final bill to the state will be. Estimates have put this cost at more than €1bn.
Any praise of the orders’ move to make further contributions is likely to be offset by the revelation that they have given the state a multi-million euro legal bill.
There was no one from the Ryan Commission available for comment when contacted but a well-placed source, close to the commission, said: “The commission is a completely independent body and the awarding of costs is a matter for the commission to deal with. I would be surprised if the religious orders or other parties did not seek their costs from the commission as they are entitled to under the legislation.”
Brother Edmund Garvey, spokesman for the Christian Brothers told the Sunday Tribune yesterday that he was not in a position to make a comment and no one from the Conference of Religious of Ireland was available for comment.
February 7, 2010
The Sunday Tribune.
Paddy,
got a reply from Taoiseach in a mere five (5) minutes. Well I’ll be the divil himself.
Just remember the mud throwing exercise.
Twisted Oliver
Well Paddy,
I have just, well and truly blistered the eardrums and eyeballs of Brian Cowan, re the E40k EUROS FOR THE UNCHRISTIAN BROS. Paddy to you have an email address, and can send you a copy.
Keep up the good work. Just love this site.
Twisted Oliver
Paddy,
it is afternoon here on North Stradbroke Island, Qld about an hour by ferry from Brisbane City, here at my inlaws home. Just getting angry about the Irish Govt, and their possible e40k payment to Unchristian brothers. I am now about to slate Brian Cowan by email. Paddy, not a day goes by, without remembering, my earliest childhood, to my commital at Dublin Castle to Artane(The Tain). For some poor creatures, it was a death sentence. Quite often my 24 year old son Jared sees my very teary eyed. My little sisters plight, taken from my Jewish MOTHERs ARMS AT 24 HOURS OLD. I DON’T need to tell you Paddy Doyle just how angry I get. I have given the current Taoiseach and Ahern some frightening moments, and there will be more to come. You must also try and stir the apathetic ones into some sort of action. ” one must throw a lot of mud, for some to stick”
Twisted Oliver
Paddy,
of course the children of the Institutions were used as guinea pigs, I even remembered that as early as the St Patricks Ctr (Sisters of Charity in Kilkenny) some of the children had very strange maladies, and were visited by various ” DOCTORS ” REGULARLY. I recall the rows of beds with sick ashen faced children, and the maggot infested pools of urine beneath the beds.
Twisted Oliver
Lasty but not least,
my brothers & sisters, as Paddy Doyle has outlined in other topics, that we are not the only nation in this “foreign” religious mess. See the current catholic church mess in Belgium.
Soon, a Canon Leboq is to make as he puts it, “Your Beautiful Island” his home. I wonder Paddy what he is fleeing from, possibly some European mainland debauchery.
Although the Irish catholic Authorities,even police, referred to my Irish Jewish mother as a black witch. At least her House of David ancestors were fleeing Jerusalem, from the onslaught of Alexander the Great. And God, how I relish the wonderful thoughts of those magnificant stoning pits. And how unlikely it is for 2(two) billion Muslims to be wrong.
Twisted Oliver
The last sentence means, get the power, and I will build the stoning pits. That should certainly, keep more of the bastards honest. Over 2 billion Muslims, can’t be wrong.
Twisted Oliver
Well, as long as you are certain that the solicitors “represent you,” as it is very possible that most institutional victims, have been duped (conned) by their supposed representatives. See that above COMMENT on that British media person, and log all your meetings etc with her, through this site. It may not keep the “bastards” honest, but should keep them “on their toes”.
However, when the English police found my parents, I recall my parents remarks re the Irish Roman Catholic Church. My father said, that the Irish Free State, was bailed out by the Church, bankrupted by the Civil War, that was caused by powermongering Irish clerics. This gave the church absolute power over every facet of Irish life.Could be why quite a few of (us) victims were taken from our families, under some very strange conditions, making a farce of the Irish Inependance Proclamation. (Arbor Hill).
My father also quoted, what his great grandparents stated “that the Vatican cared not how or who, controlled the catholic states, as long as they paid their dues to the church.” Millions of Irish Folk have died in vain, poorly trained, poorly armed, but well “Pulpit Bashed” so much to the benefit of the “Catholic Church”. The losers have always been the hard working Irish people. Please Historically Note, that the church and its lackeys always remained intact. This, as generations of my family said, “Kept the Irish People, (literally) Upon their Knees.”
Hence, my offer of the stoning pits, still stand.
Twisted Oliver
Hi all,
I am going to a solicitor tomorrow to discuss abuse I received C.30 years ago while attending a CBS. I am attending counselling which is being funded by the Christian Brothers.
Am I doing the right thing?
Thanks.
Bertin Ahearn is a good catholic
Good Catholic, Bad Irishman
Actually Jim I have and I see people do it on websites everyday.
On the link below on Richard Dawkins there was an article by prominent British journalist Paula Kirby.
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/4835
The website is seen by thousands of people every day.
If you scroll down I corrected the impression that the Ryan report was some sort of Inquisition into the religious orders.
She sent me a few PM’s and I gave her sources for more information.
With the internet you have one of the most powerful tools for communication that has ever been invented. The Catholic Church Limited is a global corporation. Before this they could contain problems locally so it was not possible for anyone to see the total of it’s corruption everywhere it operates.
Now it can’t operate a policy of containment so easily if those who oppose its malevolent influence use the advantages of the 21st century.
FXR: yours 08.02.10
I can’t receive RTE TV so I was deprived of the pleasure of watching the Bertie Ahern interview.
What you say is absolutely right. Bertie is an old boy of St Aidan’s Christian Brothers school. Back in 1997 he was asked about the abuse of children by the CBs. He replied :
“I’m a great defender of the Christian Brothers. They did a good job on me. There wasn’t too much corporal punishment and any that there was, was probably deserved”.
The cost of Bertie’s education was subsidised by the slave labour of the Artane prisoners. The same applies to Patrick Pearse, Eamon de Valera, Gay Byrne, Pat Kenny (RTE), Justice Sean Ryan, etc. etc.
In 1999 Bertie set up the rigged Commission. It was appointed, staffed, financed, and completely controlled by the Education Department – the chief defendant party whose wrongdoings over the previous 60 years the Commission was supposedly investigating! From 2004, this rigged outfit was headed up by Justice Sean Ryan, an old boy of O’Connell Christian Brothers school – and of course the Christian Brothers were also supposedly under investigation by the Commission!
How could anybody possibly claim that this Commission was independent? Yet that is the claim being made in Ireland! And that outlandish claim has never been challenged by anyone – least of all by the “survivors”. When the Commission collapsed under the weight of its own corruption in 2003 the “survivors” begged for it to be re-instated!
Did anyone really expect this fraudulent inquiry to reveal the truth? Well, everyone has accepted the Ryan report without question. It is holy writ in Ireland. Nobody has criticised it – least of all the “survivors”.
The Ryan report is a State cover-up, a whitewash, a fake history. Everyone knows that but nobody in Ireland dares to say it.
What lovely clothes the Emperor is wearing today!
Jim Beresford, former Artane child prisoner 14262, Huddersfield, England
jim.beresford@btinternet.com
Dear Paddy,
great stuff, has been posted on this issue. All I can add to this is, that stoning pits should be introduced for all keepers of the Irish Istitutions, Unchristian Brothers, Clergy and their lackies. Stoning should be carried out minimum of 2 weeks per individual, & for their masters, hung, drawn and quartered, whilst we the victims, auction their assets that we the victims slaved for.
None of the victims of abuse (to my knowledge) have ever held a top position in Irish politics, so where is our real influence in all of this mess. All we seem to be getting is “crumbs from the table”.
The Institutional Owners,on account of being hard necked, are still calling the shots.
Justice is only obtained, from the barrel of a gun.
regards from Twisted Oliver
The agreement to pay the respondents’ legal fees was made years ago when the rigged inquiry was established. Did anybody object to the rigged inquiry at the time? No, they didn’t. I knew in 1999 that the Commission was a nasty fraud but everyone in Ireland told me it was the best thing since sliced bread.
Everyone agreed to the cover-up. Now the bill for the cover-up has come in and nobody wants to pay it!
Wake up folks! The issue is the cover-up, not the bill.
Jim Beresford, former Artane child prisoner 14262, Huddersfield, England
jim.beresford@btinternet.com
Shoot them as soon as possible
The Pope wears Prada shoes and ermine around his neck! I hope the balls of his feet are comfortable and that his hard neck is comfortable with the feel of ermine around it.
Ouch!!!! I mean the jockeys spherical objects!
Necks like jockeys bollixes more like. They have, and never had any morals.
And to think that at last Fine Gael feel provoked into protesting the audacity of the Christian Brothers. I mean it is even too much for them to stomach. Now is the time for our little republic to assert itself against these people and send out a clear message to them and to Rome that it is game over. I have a good hunch that these orders have just shot themselves in the foot. Well done and please reload.
I’m sure Mr. Ryan, who was educated by the Christian Brothers, will be most sympathetic to his former school masters.
The fix was in the way the commission was set up in the first place. What else would you expect from Bertie the simpleton Catholic?
The Meaning of Life with Gay Byrne. Interview with Bertie.
http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1065922
Martha, I’ll place the first order with you! 24th March is the day of the revolution. I hope you’ll be able to make it on the day?
What is the Criminal Assets Bureau doing? These ‘goys’ should be stripped of all their assets. They should be processed through the legal system and face criminal charges for damaging the thousands of lives of vulnerable children! Arthur Cox Solicitors should be villified for their legal representation of these monsters!
Bloody brass neck comes to mind. Does this mean that those of us who attended the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse should be paid also for giving our evidence and time. You commit the crime which they did you do the time which they won’t or pay the costs which they should
LOL!!!…Paddy..I’m absolutely gobsmacked!
The Devil Definately Does Wear Prada With That Lot ay!!!
La Revolution..The Awakening..JUSTICE!
Have a good week Paddy, God bless you with a sharp mind and plenty of fire in your belly..
Love Anne and family..xx
Hi: I suppose that the religious were working this out and aware of this “clawback” when they made their offer to extend their previous but paltry contribution to the total payout.
So where did the Church get their money in the first place?
Assumably from the then 95% ( but now greatly diminished over 40 or so years) of the Irish population who steadfastly supported them and the mythology of how they supported them during the previous 700 hundred years.
The church were the first exploiters – they remained in this position until quite recently. (I would think that many within this organisation believe their time will come again – too!!)
The property came from both Irish citizens and the State to allow them to do their “Good works”. It came directly in the form of land, other property, payments, special tax exemptions and other benefits.
So when their “good work” record was in the main shown to be a sham, are they asked to give this back?
No! They are then given a place at the table to “negotiate” their position and fix their level of damages.
How just is that or how just can that be seen? The church, to my mind has proven over the last 20 years to be morally corrupt, incapable of reform and unjust in its treatment to the many who were exploited in many different ways by their need for power, position and the cementing of their own perpetuity into Irish life.
They are now seen to be the pariah. An unjust organisation who continue to show they are unable to (really) reform themselves politically, organisationally or socially.
They continue to twist and turn to maximise their own position while claiming to represent a figurehead who owned little or nothing.
The few disseminating voices from within their own organisation, I think, are mostly considered criticisms. Where within their own ranks is the leadership who will not only stand and be counted?
Remember that part of their offer was the offer of property – which I think would, in the main, now be at the end of its useful life and a financial drain to them.
The good parts of the property were “drained” off to property developers et al who also appear to have a similar politically supported position. An example of this is Stillorgan Rd., where a vast tract of land owned between many religious groups in the 1970’s was parcelled of and out for development, leaving small(ish) parcels for the remaining business of the various religious orders, who previously had farming and other activities on this same space.
So who amongst them is prepared to offer an alternative – a real alternative?
To me they display more of the characteristics of a “gang mentality”, who will take all the negative publicity but continue unabated on their quest for money, influence and power. It is my belief that their modus operandi is really no different from any crime syndicate at work in modern Ireland.
So why do we continue to treat them differently?
Why do so many Irish people consider that they should continue to provide them with support through “dues” and other demands for payment.
Is it not time to have another action similar to the “Rent strikes” where history shows that real hurt is often only delivered through their pockets.
MM
It’s quite simple – money is their God – always was and always will be.. Amen.
Bernadette
What I want to know is when is La Revolution starting? I’ve been waiting for so long now (for the Irish people to get Good & Angry, i.e., REVOLT) that I’ve manage to knit half a dozen really nice Arran sweaters – think I’ll start a Cottage Industry…
The words “hard neck” must have been invented for these guys. Is this a joke? Maybe I should give up the drink!!