The Irish Times – Saturday, April 17, 2010
Survivors split after meeting Taoiseach
PATSY McGARRY Religious Affairs Correspondent
ABUSE VICTIMS and representative groups were bitterly divided yesterday following a four-hour meeting with the Taoiseach and a number of his Cabinet colleagues on Thursday night.
John Kelly of Irish Soca said last night that neither he nor six other survivor groups represented at the meeting wanted any more to do with the Government on the issue. Their intention now, he said, was to seek meetings with the religious congregations to ensure that the additional €200 million being sought from them by the Government goes into a compensation fund which will be administered by employees of the abuse groups.
Thursday’s meeting came immediately after three hours of talks between the Taoiseach and his Cabinet colleagues and representatives of 18 religious congregations which ran residential institutions for children investigated by the Ryan commission.
Mr Kelly said he was “taken aback” and “shell-shocked” at the later meeting when the Taoiseach “dropped the bombshell” that just €110 million from contributions by the congregations was to go into a fund for former residents of the institutions, which would be administered by the State.
At that point, Michael O’Brien of the Right to Peace group walked out, he said. Later, so did Tom Hayes of the Alliance group, Christy Heaphy of the Right of Place group, as well as representatives of Justice and Healing, Irish Survivors of Institutional Abuse, and an international survivors’ group.
The Taoiseach was called “a thief, a deceiver and a cheat” and was told that the monument to abuse victims recommended by the Ryan report should be “a statue of him with a balaclava”.
He said that “to describe the meeting as ‘angry’ would be mild”.
Christine Buckley of the Aislinn centre in Dublin, however, criticised some at the meeting. She said they were “destructive from the start and used very aggressive tones even before the Taoiseach opened his mouth”.
She welcomed the new fund and the further contributions from religious congregations, although she felt it was “a disappointing figure”. Still, she said, “you have to remember, the religious orders didn’t have to contribute another penny. They did so because of public outcry following Ryan,” she said.
She was pleased with the Taoiseach’s promise to look into the situation of women who had been in Magdalene laundries, and the issue of late applications for redress. Others pleased with the meeting included Mick Waters of Soca UK, Paddy Doyle, Noel Barry of the Right of Place group, and London councillor Sally Mulready, she said.
The Taoiseach had been “extremely patient throughout and very attentive”, she said. He was accompanied at the meeting by Tánaiste Mary Coughlan, Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern, Minister for Health Mary Harney, and the Minister for Children, Barry Andrews.
Hi kathleen,
I’m sorry your having difficulty, but that number should be fine..yes we’r here in sunny old England! lol..
Be great to hear from you Kathleen,
Best regards..
Anne.
hi ann still no luck with that number 07860468198 by any chance do you live in england if so ive sorted out whats wrong thanks
The idea of convincing all survivors, or trying to that we had to protect some secrecy about our files caused a lot of confusion ,it separated many of us from each other , secrets don’t exist when people share memories. we all share memories of each other s time in the institutions. it should bring us together . and not cause fear .
Dear Corneilius,
Thankyou for your knowledge and information. Wow. This truly say’s it all.
Granny what you said is absolutely spot on !
Also Rose, when you said we were ” VICIOUSLY DEPRIVED ” You also couldn’t have put that any better…
The Taoiseach/Cori.. are very aware of what is happening and it would be wise at this time to make sure all survivors of Child Abuse are paid immediately as they have stated so in the past on many recorded occassions.
Unfortunately for many survivor’s
It has, and maybe too late as alot have passed away or in bad health and so are unable to enjoy any kind of happiness, or feel justice has been done in some way.
I shall be intouch again shortly.
Take good care everyone,
Regards, Anne
P.s! Hi Kathleen 07860468198 I’m sure I gave the right number..but please call anytime Kathleen, be lovely to hear from you..
Anne
ON THE POISONOUS PEDAGOGY.
It is essential to draw attention to the fact that Alice Miller wrote FOR YOUR OWN GOOD a full 30 years ago. So this knowledge has been in the public domain for a very long time, which makes SOCIETY’S DENIAL and REJECTION of these Principles all the more shocking, especially as EVIDENCE IS PILING UP on our heads on a DAILY basis, on top of the VICTIMS’ CRIES which grow ever LOUDER.
It is particularly TRAGIC (actually bordering on the criminal/ly insane), that the PSYCHO-CARE PROFESSIONS have been just as FROZEN in applying these Principles. I feel very sorry for the very large family of Victims who are still STRUGGLING with their LIVES, STRANGLED by CRIMES and ISSUES of which they have always been TOTALLY INNOCENT.
Alice Miller went on to write another dozen books and provided a website which carries all her information, as well as the most precious READERS LETTERS Link where you can find personal stories that will touch your hearts.
I can only say here: “TRUST ME and BELIEVE ME” (if you can); that stuff is not secret nor clever, and it’s FREE, READY and AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW. You can find a VOICE, A WITNESS and maybe a WAY OUT of the darkness in the words that you’ll find there.
The website is
http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php
And the book FOR YOUR OWN GOOD is also available to read online for free at
http://www.nospank.net/
Respectfully and ON YOUR SIDE
Raymond
Corneilius !
These songs of yours are fabulous, and you ARE very clever with your words. I offered them as a Tribute to Alice Miller!(Facebook)
THANK YOU
Raymond
Here’s a profoundly important essay on what is called ‘poisonous pedagagy’ : looking at what are called ‘child rearing’ practices that emerge from Establishment Society, and it goes some way to explaining the dynamics of denial and cover-up the Irish Government, and others are engaged in.
http://education.gsu.edu/csal/icwl/abs01/ihelfield1.htm
Here is my song for all the children :
Stop What You Are Doing, You Are Hurting Me!
http://www.reverbnation.com/artist/song_details/4242502?play_now=true
I would like to add that for me, I want ALL the abuse to stop, wherever and however it occurs.
I mean STOP!
As a child I wanted to say “STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING, YOU ARE HURTING ME!” but never could, and with the intensity of the abuse, that thought vanished as I became adapted to abuse as ‘normal’.
Thus many people accept war as ‘normal’, adverse power as ‘normal’, hierarchy as ‘normal’ and act to protect these false ideas; that’s the reason behind the State and Churches self defence. They accept these things as ‘normal’ – that’s why they have Armies, ‘Defence Budgets’ and so on.
What I see is this : that the health of any given society is based upon how children are treated, because that’s what will determine the behaviour of the adult the child becomes. Treat the child with empathy, and you end up with an empathetic human being. Treat the child as someone who needs to be controlled and he or she will grow up as a controlling person. Abuse the child and he or she will suffer, and many (not all) will grow up to become abusers in their turn, unless they notice and start to undo the damage.
Empathetic adults do not abuse others.
hi ann i think you gave me the wrong number it says the number is not in survice thanks kathleen the number you gave 08760468198
Are we NOT of the same NATION who fought for 600 years for our freedom from repression WELL then surley we TOGETHER can fight a bunch of CON artists and Dreadful people who know the Law in Ireland was Broken when they condemed Irish defenceless children to Brutal Child Prisons . The Catholic Church, The so called Irish Government were all in on it Together ,The Guarda In Ireland Followed and helped them like sheep.They are the Guilty One’s. >What sort of Country Drags crying Babies and young children into the CRIMINAL COURT to sentence the children into Reformatories Child Prisons.????? To be brutially battered ,Starved , Tortured, and made to work as Slaves for the benifit of the Catholic Church’. Stick Together.
Oops. congregations. I did not type that word in my last post. lol.
We don’ want charity… We were viciously deprived of our childhood by The State and Religous Congretationst into whose care (prisons) they put us. We want and deserve proper compensation and justice for that.
Since these groups are supposed to be legal charities, well what acts of charity do they perform , from the outside its very hard to understand , but if anyone knows , well at least tell us about it ,
paddy just receivd this every one that sent an email to mr cowen look at this I REFER TO YOUR RECENT EMAIL CONCERNING THE ISSUES YOU RAISE DUE TO INDUSTRIAL ACTION ON THE PART OF SOME STAFF IN THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS CAN NOT BE REPLIED TO DIRECTLY COULD YOU PROVIDE ADDRESS AND WILL PROCESS YOUR QUERY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE YOURS T B CORRESPONDENCE so what does that tell you were waisting our time thanks
Hi Kathleen
Hope your are well, of course you may contact me. I shall look forward to speaking with you soon,
Kind regards,
Anne
07860468198
just received email from taoiseach office it reads THE TAOISEACH MR BRIAN COWEN HAS ASKED ME TO ACKNOWLEDE RECEIPT OF YOUR EMAIL WHICH HAS BEEN REFERRED TO THE OFFICE OF TANAISTE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION AND SKILLS FOR ATTENTION AND REPLY HERE WE GO AGAIN PASSING THE BUCK I DONT WANT TO DEAL WITH MARY COUGHLAN DONE WITH SKILS AND EDUCATION SO I TAKE IT THAT EVERYONE WHO HAS WRITTEN TO MR COWEN IS GOING TO GET THE SAME ANSWER OH ID LIKE TO SWEAR IM LIVID THERE HAS TO BE ANOTHER WAY OF GETTING WHICH IS OURS ANY IDEA ANYONE PLEASE NO MORE GROUPS TIME IS GETTING ON THANKS
hallo paddy i would love to get in touch with ann ive no idea how but if ann doesnt wish i will respect her wishes thanks paddy
Kathleen,
Thankyou for your kind words and to everyone else yet again.
Well it’s Sunday and should be our rest day but here I am again discussing the same old issue, sadly.
Kathleen I totally understand what you meant about standing on that landing. When I first came over to England, I slept under my bed for over a year! the constant feeling of living on nerves for so long was so damaging for all of us.
I have noticed that this particular Topic that has been going on for many weeks will not be seen by all general public, and of course The Government/Taoiseach e.c.t as there is only a direct link for us already on the Mailing list. I wonder if “The Important ” one’s can see what is going on here. Also there is no need to worry right now because we could all meet, even if there was 20 of us I bet that figure would be more on the list of ” certain Group Centre’s ” that’s for sure.
What I’m saying here is that no one is representing us, so therefore we have a right to represent ourselves, hence dealing with the issue with The Taoiseach/Cori e.c.t
They have LEGAL OBLIGATION to converse, comply and provide, just as they have with the Group Leader’s who took it upon themselve’s to represent us. It is the same thing.
I’ll be interested to see if and who get’s further reply’s from the Taoiseach in the coming week’s. I personally will only allow this to go so far and then will take necessary action if need be.
Group Leader’s certain Individual’s have many thing’s going on for them, providing them with a good and regular income. We deserve the same, as in a regualr wage, no? or the correct compensation and with IMMEDIATE EFFECT.
There is NO compromise. The one’s that tell you it’s not all about the money are VERY financially stable.
Thus far I shall be careful what I say, but please stay intouch, thankfully to the good few I have now connected in the last couple of weeks make’s it easier to get the compensation we deserve. It is our’s and it is illegal for anyone else to keep that money.
Kind regard’s and please take care..
Anne
Hello Paddy i understand where Ann is coming from I too suffer from post traumatic stress and anxiety been on tablets for years can’t cope without them been to counselling but the memories never leave when i go to bed at night and the first thing in the morning always there like demons AND ITS NOT MY FAULT it’s the way I was treated from eight months to sixteen years of age I feel for Ann and so many people out there God help us all and the damage they have done thanks Paddy
Dear Paddy,
Firstly I’d like to thankyou for continuing to put up my message’s.
Secondly I’d also like to thankyou for your comment’s made in the News papers today in regard’s to how most survivor’s are feeling about the further contributions e.c.t
Bernadette, Rose, Kathleen, Ken and Patrick..I’m sorry If I’ve missed anyone out there! I would like to thankyou on such lovely comment’s and support..also, I am absolutely thrilled that you have taken the first step to write to Mr Cowen-Taoseach to ask for what you are legally entitled to.
There were commitment’s made which are on record by the Taoseach/Cori in May/June 2009 stating clearly that survivor’s would receive further contributions, and by Law this has to be in affect. That money has been donated by the Cori who have stated regularly that there will be further contribution’s to each survivor.
Firstly I would like to ask some simple question’s- I don’t want a reply, but I want you to consider the following very carefully.
1). Do any of the Survivor’s of Child Abuse suffer with Mental Health condition’s, such as chronic Anxiety, severe Depression , Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, OCD, Agraphobia e.c.t?-This is without taking into account physical condition’s. These are serious life obstructing condition ‘s that many soldier’s experience. It totally destroy’s the quality of live’s. Also, then there are those who sadly turned to drug’s/alcohol because the pain of life was too unbearable..and what might have been a good, kind hearted and caring person, through no fault of his/her own, turn to drink/drug’s to take all the pain away. They then become outcast’s in society and looked upon as a no good for nothing.
2).Is there any survivor who would like to apply to the Education Finance Board for College/University Fee’s and if so, would any of the above symptoms affect you in anyway in regard’s to further Education/courses taken?- No disrespect to any survior who would rightly so enjoy to take up such courses. I am only going of my own case as I am 63 this year and under The Mental Health Team. I suffer terribly with chronic Anxiety, Depression, Agraphobia e.c.t Also, my son has Brain Injury and my Daughter has M.e. So personally there will be no going back to University at my age, (and I doubt very much after 10 yrs In St Joseph’s, 38 yrs trying to look after my Husband who was in a coma for some time and also suffered brain damage and passed away in 2005.) that I would even contemplate, rarther, it would absolutely not be possible to do so, and I’m guessing, well actually, know that most survivor’s suffer most of the above. This has been proven with psychiatry Report’s, G.P’S e.c.t
3).Has any of the survivor’s of abuse used the funded services for Counselling at any time?-once again, going of my own experience I have not applied nor received any Counselling as to be quite honest,and for me personally, the thought of going back over my past which I would rather forget (and in most cases cannot) is just as bad as living the abuse all over again. Bearing in mind the statement I had given whilst giving my evidence at The Redress Board, was designed/pre-meditated to break us that much, that the desired affect of that out come did exactly what was intended, which was to throw you in at the deep end with money grabbing and heartless Solicitor’s forcing you to accept ” good offer’s ” and leave you feeling guilty, broken, abused some more, and for me personally it took month’s to get over and I ended up in Hospital with all related stress illnesses.
The compensation paid was not to Highcourt Payout’s.
What we need now is IMMEDIATE financial assistance, for living, debt’s, bill’s,Loan’s, comfort and maybe just a little bit of joy, and for our children/grandchildren. And I do beleive that many did take out further Loans as the result of being ” advised ” from group leader’s that we were to receive more contribution’s so our now actually worse of. This in itself is illegal because these group’s are funded by the Cori/Government and should have been Audited in a way all information was correct. They are charity’s and have to apply for that status so, it is the same as if it were consumer right’s e.c.t. You have been Ill advised.
Now, wait for your reply’s everyone, I will be intouch. There is actually a legal way in which we are entitled to do this and if thing’s are dragged on anymore I think there will be other Government Official’s, Corri, Group Leader’s, The Ryan Commission ec.t that could legally be investigated for serious misconduct. And also sued once again for the nature in which this was dealt with, leading many survivor’s past and present to take their live’s, suffer further as a result of the case being dragged out and denied for many many years.
Take care for now..and Godbless..
Anne
well said Anne i quoted a while ago on this site that every one should write to Brian cowan ,and anyone else ,including cori i have written to them all and had replies from all the departments and made it quite clear that we in the uk do not want a trust fund ,but we would like a voice at last we are no longer children and will be no longer kept silent ,our opinions matter , after all we were the victims ,no one speaks for us ,i can speak for myself as can most survivors the goverment should take the time to visit each and every group and get a better idea of what the survivors want and need and we are old enough to decide what to do with our money and how we use it,and make our own decisions at last i am not accountable to the church now or the irish goverment they owe us big time ,so its time they did the right thing and put an end to it all so we can move on at last ,we are after all, all getting older .
Kathleen A BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE TO ANN AND ROSE HERE HERE I COULDN’T AGREE MORE NOW MAYBE WE WILL GET SOMETHING DONE EVERYONE EMAIL MR COWEN I DID. ALL STAND TOGETHER AND BE ONE. COME ON. THANKS
Dear Paddy,
I do not wan’t to offend you or anyone else. You know well that I have looked to you in the past for advice on these thing’s, but unfortunately and with all due respect, there have been time’s when you have made it clear you do not wish to get involved with the financial need’s of survivor’s, this also became apparent to us when on the last ninute you did not give any help/support to your friend Barry Clifford who tried his best with the March, in fact I saw that as a deterrant. And yet you hoped for support in your own protest in regards to right’s for disabled people at the Theatre(rightly so) and yet this is exactly what your site represent’s! which is not only the subject of child abuse but for letting people express themselve’s and connect with eachother, which is fantastic, however, would you not agree that this is a topic that is frequently discussed and rather detrimental to most survivor’s now who at this stage in their live’s finally deserve peace, comfort and joy. Yes the dirty old word money come’s up here again! but it’s the truth and every survivor deserves and is rightly entitled to that.
I mean come on Paddy, you know there’s alot of money been contributed in the last few month’s from the Religious Order’s and you(well I best not say you) but certain people really expect those survivor’s to not ask for what they deserve?? But yet certain people are funded and donated to, for website’s, Group Leader’s and for what? in what way will this help survivor’s at this late stage in life? It’s damm insulting. As if we haven’t been abused, destroyed, insulted enough…infact humilliated and took the piss out, excuse my french!
Ken, thankyou for your kind word’s and I know you mean Paddy no disrespect, it’s a difficult one this isn’t Ken???.. but I have reservation’s which I will not divulge as yet;I am waiting for the right time and response to my letter from the Taoseach.
Rose, well done to you for writting direct to Mr Cowen as you have made the right move there.
I would suggest all survivor’s do the same.
Christine Buckley, Mick Water’s and the like’s of them do not represent me..remember they asked and they got..do not let them take what is your’s you have a legal right to go direct to the Government as it is illegal what they are doing with our money.
They should not be giving monie’s to Groups e.c.t as these group’s are doing nothing for us! Unless they can prove it! and this does not include “Tea and buiscuit’s”
They were not there for me when I was homeless for two years! it say’s it all really and sadly although Paddy’s site is a benefit to discuss important subject’s of child abuse e.ct it should be noted that Paddy does attend certain meeting’s and is respected by Government therefore, he would have been able to not just talk about who’s going to get a ” pettition” for him or anyone else to speak on our behalf,but go directly with a list of all your name’s stating your thought’s, comment’s want’s and need’s for immediate action. I wonder why you havne’t done that yet Paddy??….You have made it clear that you don’t agree or get involved with the like’s of Christine Buckley..or any group’s, however you clearly have a following on your site and I would of thought with the connection’s and information e.c.t you would have been able and willing to help those loyal follower’s on your site who look to you, especially with you having direct contact with Mr Cowan.
Take care everyone..I repeat, your money is sat in their Accoun’t waiting to be dispersed, make sure you strongly demand what’s yours. Have no leader take your money, they did not do your sentence!
Godbless…Annne
Ken. I must defend myself when it comes to an accusation of “verbally attacked Anne for what she wrote”. Just this minute, I’ve checked what I replied to Anne and I can’t for the life of me see how it could be construed as a verbal attack. Had I “verbally attacked” anyone I would be the very first to apologise and indeed did so if I had caused offence. Those who know me, know that I don’t do verbal attacks.
I’m sorry that you were “shocked” by my reply. Paddy.
What i meant by “the damage is done” paddy is that you verbally attacked Anne for what she wrote. Even when it wasn’t directed at you. I am sure Anne was hurt by your reply. No apology can change what was said. The damage is done.
I myself was shocked by your reply’s also.
ken
Damage – what damage? Paddy.
Well said anne.
Paddy apology is no good the damage is done.
After reading Ann’s comment I decided to send the following to those that govern our country.
Hello… Wake Up.. Is anyone of you listening?…. The State & The Religous Congregations were all responsible for what happened in to Innocent Children in Industrial Schools…..What right do the government and religous congregation have,to make decisions as to how ANY MONEY (which rightfully belongs to the VICTIMS of industrial school abuse,) should be spent. ? Surely it is up to the victims to decide. Not all victims are represented by groups. Many are out there not knowing what’s going on. Why not give everyone who went to redress a say.? Listen to us, we were silenced for long enough.We were deprived of our childhood. Please, let us have some bit of dignity in what’s left of our lives.
It appears you’ve misinterpreted my response. I note also that the only issue you refer to Anne, is money when in fact I asked a lot of questions regarding your comment. I don’t believe I got it wrong when reading your post/comment and if I did, I apologise. Paddy.
Dear Paddy,
You sound a tad defensive there Paddy??..now if you read back over my message clearly you will know that I never suggested/insinuated you, directly or indirectly personally have ” Hoodwinked ” anyone! and I am now seriously considering why I would receive such a strong response from yourself!?!…now that did shock me coming from you, being such a caring and intelligent man. (Not being patronising by the way, I genuinely mean that)
I was simply giving my oppinion/comment’s to other survivor’s who are also looking for ” compo “(such a horrible way to put it like that by the way paddy, compensation for year’s of abuse and a life of misserry would have been more sufficient, but coming from a fellow survivor as yourself, and put like that make’s it sound awful!) as you suggested in your mail to me, who have every right to do so!
I wonder if the like’s of Rose, ken or any of the other’s who feel strongly about their right to receive compensation had such a response about wanting, well, actually needing in most cases, compensation which their rightly entitled to?? You have never suggested, or offended/commented, or rather made them feel like you made me feel when you put that in your message to me. I was genuinely shocked with that comming from you..hence my strong message in return.
Paddy, I could easily say you also offended me. In saying in a round about way that because I ” want compo”, that’s all I’m interested in! now that is absolutely unfair and untrue! and quite insulting actually.
I have been watching the comment’s on your site and feel weary and sad for other survivor’s who look to you for the answers..granted thank’s to you they can communicate with eachother, it’s a good job! all I was doing was expressing my opinion, just as the other’s have.
Would you agree, this subect has been going round in circle’s Paddy? It’s dragged on for a while.
Also,make of it what you will with regard’s to my comment about being “Hoodwinked” you probably know much more than most patrick.
I will say for now to other survivors on your site, good luck for now, keep your eye’s and ear’s open and use what God give you for you have it within yourselve’s to get what you rightly deserve, without being made feel guilty for wanting that.
Please bare in mind Paddy, there are survivors of child abuse who haven’t been compensated, or who are deperately struggling, or feel now, and especially since they’ve woken up and realised ” This is is” We’ve been/lived through hell and it’s took all these years, and still in deperate need for financial assistance, compensation..e.c.t Alot are not as comfy as some other Group leader’s/survivor’s e.c.t !?!?!?
Like I said in my last message I am now awaiting another response from Mr Cowen, Taoseach and will take thing’s further in result of that response myself.
Take care everyone..and godbless, keep alert and remember you can do this yourselves.
Anne.
Hi Paddy,
Not posted for a while as this battle can drain one’s energie’s and there’s way too much talking for my liking.
Kathleen, Rose, Liam, and anyone else I’ve forgot..I would like to let you know that it would be Legal to take this to the Court of Human Right’s. I have been informed but I would like to strongly suggest that you do not put a vote for no ” leader ” or Group…
Your are correct in the fact that these Group’s are on regular income’s and should that stop so wwould certain monie’s and regular wage’s.
I’m afraid the only person I am aware of who is actually fighting for ” our ” money to be paid out equally is Mr Micheal O’Brien. This is fact.
I am not going to get involved in anything anymore other go after what I am entitled to and what’s rightly mine.
I also know that The religious would be willing to give the monie’s to the survivor’s rather than give it to the state as the State are just as much to blame and DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TAKE OUR MONEY!
Alot of bad has gone on, but recently I am aware via certain information that there are still good people, religious of the new age, who would like to see that money go direct to the survivor’s.
So ask yourselve’s this now.
1.-Who is stopping this money from being dispursed equally..wether or not a small amount or large amount.
2.-What are you going to do now?
3.-Do you spend your time talking amongst yourselve’s much longer?
4.-Or do you ask directly to the Government-or Religious direct by personal letter to tell them you would like your share?
It is that simple..do not keep going with a particular mindset. It is your money. now why don’t you ask!
Anne.
Just found this website. In answer to Robert, April 24, 2010 at 11:16
I was raised entirely in the “care” system in England. partly at Sisters of Mercy Nazareth House in Southend on Sea, Essex. It was not a bad experience. But I accept that children in Ireland had a very bad experience – my step-brother Barry was ‘raised’ by UnChristian ‘Brothers’ in Galway. The effects of this upbringing described in your posting would pertain to any child raised outside a family, but the abuse (psychological and physical) would have made a bad situation worse. Barry is right to be angry at the cowardly self-interest of Irish politicians and their fellow travellers. Your insights into the effects of your upbringing mirror my own thoughts on this matter. The non-religious ‘care’ providers were no better than the ones who profess adherence to religious orders. Human beings are naturally sadistic and cowardly – whatever situation they find themselves in. The feckless males and females who brought uncared for children into the world deserve as much censure as the people who chose but failed to care for them. I hope your insights into your situation do not embitter you, or cause you more anguish than the unworthy creatures who gave rise to your thoughts.
Best wishes,
LIam Curley
first of all paddy
i believe mr barry is to step down and already the choice to replace him is from those who run the branch groups.
all meetings of the past were, members were asked to vote there was NO BALLOT BOX for written proof for or against.
the only mandate i know of is the list of people from the very beginning who asked for support from this group regarding redress, accommodation, and so on. mr barry uses these names and address as his titlement to decide on their behalf what he and his committee think is best.
these people are unaware their names are being used for decisions he is making on behalf of them without their consent.
remember a lot are very old others uneducated, sick and so on what chance have they?
there was never a form to fill out on what each individual needs of survivors. they they were just handed or sent forms from the offices of redress education and counseling how much was spent blah blah.
everything was decided by private meetings behind closed doors known as board/branch meetings.
then survivors were invited to large survivor meetings to choose the ideas these people have set up just as this list.
any questions that put their ideas down were pushed aside.
the sheer ego of some of these people is terrible, some survivors were even scared to object, because this group was all a survivors had at the time remember.
these latest area meetings are a set up for the big meeting in july so i have been informed.
i see this as promoting their ideas only (my opinion) new tactics for new leaders.
this list has only met some people not all. i have never been given it for sure.
PADDY IT WOULD BE GREAT TO HAVE A STRONG HONEST PERSON THERE WHEN THEY WANT TO CHOOSE A LEADER WE MAY GET OURSELVES A SPOKESPERSON AFTER ALL.
ALL HERE COULD GO AND MAKE SURE VOTES ARE IN BALLOT AND ALL HERE CAN VOTE FOR THE OBVIOUS CHOICE
((YOU PADDY)).
WE THEN CAN TRAVEL TO ALL GROUPS AND LET SURVIVORS KNOW THEY COULD HAVE A VOICE AT LAST.
close all the groups have a leader/spokesperson and set up an office for survivors to be heard individually with proper staff who could work on behalf of the PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE.
if survivors are having problems with social services, housing, health departments we as survivors can then have back up to educate these government offices of the possible difficulties survivors have in areas of their lives.
this would save money and waste of our resources.
NO MORE GROUPS.
AS YOU SAID PADDY “NOTHING ABOUT US WITHOUT US”
There most definetly was a meeting held in Waterford on Thursday evening, Paddy. However, there wil NOT be one held in Cork until the ‘minutes from the last meeting’ with the government have been received by Right of Place, Mr John Ross of Right of Place, Cork, told me this when I phoned them this morning.
Some people say there was a meeting, others say there wasn’t. It’s all “up in the air” Rose. Let’s see if my invitation to ALL groups claiming to representing people who were abused to contribute to this website is taken up. Perhaps then and only then the truth will come out. Paddy.
I’ve held the view and expressed the opinion many times that the place where ALL cases of abuse against ALL people in Ireland and indeed elsewhere Is Strasbourg. The Redress Board is far from the ideal place to hear such cases. Paddy.
Let’s get on with the duet David, we might even make it a Christmas number 1. The intrigue that surrounds people such as Mr. Barry – there are others – is worthy of a Bond film or perhaps a Monty Python film. I’d like to know the answers to all the questions you want answers to. There stands and open invitation to Mr. Barry and anyone else purporting to representing “survivors of abuse” to use this site and tell us all what their agenda is and by what authority they ‘represent’ people who where abused while in institutional care.
Let the singing commence David. Are you, bass, baritone or soprano. I’m rough and ready rock n’ roll guy myself. Paddy.
If you don’t mind, I would like to sing from the same hymn sheet as yourself Paddy. I am also intrigued as to who gave Mr Barry the mandate (any mandate) to set out a questionaire for survivors (by invitation only is appears) to fill in. What are the results of the questionaire and indeed what was the purpose? The only reason we knew of a meeting on 13th May was because someone was good enough to post it on here otherwise it would have been yet another surreptitious sequence of events denied to many survivors of instutional abuse. Denied by the very people who claim to represent us.
I would appreciate knowing who chaired the meeting, who took the minutes, how many people attended, how long did it go on for, the real purpose of the meeting and what is the next stage (what does Mr Barry plan on doing with the results of the questionair). I am all ears.
Paddy. Has any one thought of going to the courts of human rights in Strasbourg never mind what the Redress Board says. I don’t think we will be breaking the law to tell the world what happened I’m not afraid. No better woman. If we’re not getting anywhere. Why not. I would start by saying forgive me for troubling you with what has been troubling me for years I think you will find it self explanatory I want to fight for the survivors and please God they will get justice. Thanks Paddy
What I’d like to know is by what right does anyone arrange these questionnaires and then make decisions. I didn’t hear Mr. Barry make any of these suggestions to Government at a meeting on the 15th April 2010. I now invite Mr. Barry to write to this site and say where he got his mandate from and by what authority he makes the decisions/questionnaires as discussed a meeting which few if any people knew anything about. I also invite Mr. Barry to tell us how many people attended the meeting and to let us see the minutes of same. Paddy
There will be no meeting in The Metropole Hotel, Cork. I phoned Right of Place in Cork and was told ‘no meeting would be held there until they receive the minutes from the last meeting with the government.’ I was also told that they didn’t have the funding and that they had to use their own money to hold the meetings in Waterford & Kerry. guess I’ll be waiting for that questionaire for another while Paddy.
Who are these people to ask questions such as those above? Who do the represent? What sort or answers did they get? What was the purpose of the questionnaire? Who is going to get the answers given to the questionnaire? Are they going to be sent to the Government? It all seems very ‘dodgy’ to me. How may people who write to this website have received such a questionnaire? After all, these people claim to represent “survivors of abuse”. Perhaps one or more of the organisers of the meeting would post a message/comment here so that we all know what’s happening and also so that secrecy is eliminated. Paddy.
KATHLEEN/PADDY. THIS WAS THE QUESTIONNAIRE LAST NIGHT. ANSWER “YES” OR “NO”
1 STATE TO DISTRIBUTE AS THEY SEE FIT.
2 PART OF TRUST FUND.
3 PART TO GO TO REDRESS BOARD COST.
4 NATIONAL CHILDREN HOSPITAL
5 TRUST FOR HEALTH AND EDUCATION FOR SURVIVORS
6 SURVIVORS TOTAL CONTROL OVER MONEY DISTRIBUTED
7 RELIGIOUS TO HAND IT OVER TO STATE CONTROL 8 RELIGIOUS TO GIVE TO SURVIVORS CONTROL ONLY THAT’S IT PADDY WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT NOW
HI PADDY KATHLEEN MY FRIEND WAS AT WATERFORD MEETING LAST NIGHT. WHY IS NOEL C BARRY GETTING A HUGE SALARY OUT OF OUR MONEY? HE WANTS THE MONEY PUT IN TRUST AND TO CHILDREN’S HOSPITAL. THIS IS WHAT HE IS SAYING TO THE GOVERNMENT. HE IS AFRAID IF THE MONEY GOES TO THE SURVIVORS HE WOULD BE OUT OF POCKET I SAY EVERYONE ON THIS WEBSITE STAND UP AND GET RID OF THESE PEOPLE ON OUR MONEY WHAT A CHEEK OH PADDY I’M SO MAD
KATHLEEN HERE. PADDY MY FRIEND WAS AT THE WATERFORD MEETING LAST NIGHT WHY IS NOEL C BARRY ON A HUGE SALARY? OUR MONEY NO LESS. HE’S RUNNING TO THE GOVERNMENT SAYING THE MONEY SHOULD GO INTO A TRUST AND A CHILDREN’S HOSPITAL. IF THE MONEY WAS DIVIDED BETWEEN ALL SURVIVORS HE WOULD BE ON NO WAGE. WHY IS HE GETTING LARGE AMOUNTS I CALL EVERYONE ON THIS SITE TO STRONGLY STAND UP AND GET RID OF THIS MAN AND ANYONE ELSE WHO IS GAINING FROM OUR RIGHTS WHO THE HELL DO THEY THINK THEY ARE GAINING FROM OUR SUFFERING? OH PADDY I’M SO MAD THE QUESTIONNAIRE WAS
I STATE DISTRIBUTE MONEY AS THEY SEE FIT ANSWER YES OR NO?
2 PUT INTO TRUST FUND
3 PART TO THE READRESS BOARD COSTS
4 NATIONAL CHILDRENS HOSPITAL
5 TRUST FOR HEALTH AND EDUCATION FOR SURVIVORS
6 SURVIVORS TOTAL CONTROL OVER MONEY DISTRIBUTED
7 RELIGIOUS HAND IT TO STATE CONTROL 8 RELIGIOUS TO GIVE TO SURVIVORS CONTROL ONLY TO ANSWER YES OR NO WELL WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT PADDY?
The last people to know about meetings concerning abuse by religious orders are the very people that the endured abuse while in the care of those orders. How often in the past have so called “Survivors representative groups” slipped away to have what can only be described as secret meetings with Bishops and others. Does anyone know what the outcome of these meeting were. I don’t and I know I’m not alone in this. Paddy.
Rose, in the unlikely event of the questionnaire turning up as you requested perhaps you would advise us all. I’d be more than happy to put such a questionnaire if it ever sees the light of day, on this website. Jeepers, don’t hold your breath. You could suffocate. Paddy.
This is the first I have heard of the meeting on the 13th of May. I wouldn’t even know that without your site Paddy. How are we supposed to get used to that, its permanent in the whole process, we have been dealing with hurt for years. Its only force of character that has saved us from the loony bins, so thanks Paddy your site is a great help.
I have requested a questionnaire from Right of Place, can’t wait to see the questions. I won’t be holding my breath while waiting though.
Absolutely David! Speaking for myself, I need to see the emergence of another group like I need a hole in the head! I hope that’s not tempting fate. Paddy.
So if the questionaires are going to be filled out by people attending the meeting on 13th May does that mean that they speak for all of us? – I don’t think so. I still think there should be a universal ballot for evey single survivor – even those who did not receive any Redress, including the Magadline women and those institutions that were not included in the Redress. Having meetings with forms to fill in only serves the purpose for those instigating such meetings to have yet bigger egos as if to suggest they were doing something very important for follow survivors.
Isn’t it amazing how everything is done in secrecy and without informing people who were abused of anything? I suppose we should be used to it all by now. It doesn’t mean it’s right. Paddy.
Paddy, I too wondered about the venue for that meeting in Waterford. Who owns the building and is the use of the hall for free?
Ah well……….another group asking more questions. It’s my view that this is the last thing we need. Paddy
kathleen here john rice will be there
Hi paddy Kathleen here the questionnaire is about how to divide the money put it into a fund or for education and so on or divide it between the survivors and so forth.
Something ironic about such a meeting being held in a place called after the founder of the Christian Brothers – Edmund Rice. Have you any idea Rose, who is organising this meeting and what sort of questions are being asked in the questionnaire.
Isn’t Edmund Rice due to be elevated to the status of Saint Edmund by the current Pope………bless his red Prada shoes!! Paddy.
Some info I received yesterday. Right of
Place will be holding a meeting in the Edmund Rice, Youth & Community
Centre, The Manor, Waterford, on Thursday 13th May @8pm. I believe people have
been sent questionaires to fill out for this meeting. There will also be a
meeting held in Cork on Saturday 22nd May.
Kathleen, thanks for your kind comment. It’s much appreciated. Best wishes. Paddy.
HI PADDY ALWAYS READ YOUR WEBSITE THINK YOUR DOING A GREAT JOB WITH SISTERS OF MERCY WHEN I WAS 8 MONTHS TILL I WAS 17 DREADFUL TIME NEVER FORGET 17 YEARS WIPED OUT LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU PADDY AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME
Yes Robert that sounds like a plan
http://www.petitions.ie if you want Paddy Doyle to speak for us.
BY THE WAY PADDY A BIG THANK YOU FOR SPENDING YOUR PRECIOUS TIME READING AND UNDERSTANDING OUR VIEWS
REGARDS ROBERT.
Apparently there is an other meeting coming up in cork mmmmm.
I just wonder why?
All I know it is supposed to be sat week in the Metrapole Hotel Cork. What time I have no idea but I dare say it would be good to have support on behalf of us survivors there.
I hope us here will be there and meet up.
We were let down by shady deals here before
They say now they want to listen to survivors. Well we have the voices here and I am only fully sure none of these people who are organizing this meeting have visited this site of Paddy’s or even showed any interest in doing so.
Because here alone on this website we have a LOT OF VIEWS FROM SURVIVORS WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN HEARD by choice of the so called group.
I HOPE WE CAN USE THIS HOTEL TO MEET UP GUYS.
Thanks Catherine, I appreciate the kind comments. Paddy.
Hello Paddy well I believe you, for the simple reason that you DON’T have a list, since its the first time in all these years that we can exchange our views, without fear. Even if it was the government funding the site all that they can read is of our feelings of helplessness , and that we don’t feel at all supported by the media stars
I think it is great to have a website like Paddy Doyle’s for survivors to have their say. He works very hard and gives so much of his time I for one respect and thank him. Catherine.
Ha ha Emer…
I am not trying to stir anything I am just speaking my mind. Its like what Robert said most people find it hard to trust.
There is so many shady people around it is very hard to find a real genuine person.
hi paddy you have put it here in writing so in this you have earned some trust.
besides this site is not exactly working on behalf of the religious or government the views here are solely sent from survivors and families and friends.
this deserves respect well done paddy.
i know some times you dont print all that has to be said but i put this down to protection of the survivor who may not be aware of legal stuff.
i am just thankful i have somewhere to air my views.
thanks for that paddy.
i only hope to meet up with you one day to shake your hand for the work you do on behalf of survivors.
i can understand the questions though as it is very hard to trust anyone in connection with power over survivors.
this power thing is still ruining peoples lives today as one feels insecure of being heard.
but some how i feel the damage has already been done by the groups who used power to agree to redress and not protected survivors enough.
this agreement between certain group/s and the redress is what has destroyed the the future of any further support for survivors.
THIS “AGREEMENT” NEEDS TO BE QUESTIONED ON HOW THE REDRESS SET UP THE RULES WITH THE GROUP/S IN THE FIRST PLACE.
WERE SURVIVORS REALLY AWARE WHAT THEY WERE SIGNING OR WERE THEY PERSUADED TO SIGN BY THE GROUPS THE LAWYERS AND SO ON?.
Ken
Here “Catch”
For those of you who can’t see what I just threw at Ken…..
It’s a
Very large “Wooden Spoon”
As I’ve said in a previous reply to you, I’ve never received a single cent/penny from the government. I’m curious to know where you might have got that idea from. You don’t have to answer of course. I can’t help but get the impression that someone is mischief making. Paddy.
It is the right of anyone not to speak or trust me or not to speak me. Such is life. Paddy.
Ken, I’m not seeking your trust, in fact I’m not seeking anything from you or from anyone else. Just to clarify, I am not a member of any group – something I’ve made clear time and time again at meetings with government and to individuals. In the 10 years that this website has been ‘up and running’ not one single cent/penny has been received by me from ANY source – government or otherwise. I can understand how people feel let down by various “survivor groups” – been there done that and “bought the tee shirt”. Paddy.
To be honest paddy, I hope you know its not that I don’t trust you. Its that I don’t trust people with power.
When I hear that you and some other group leaders are be funded by government I always wonder whose side are you on.
What’s that expression, you don’t bit the hand that feeds you,
In my opinion, I would say they are many survivors and family members that can’t trust the hierarchy or people with control.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/sncwqleyql/rss2/
Maybe this is why they don’t talk and trust you Paddy.
Paddy, is it true that you are being funded by the government??
Thank you David for your advise, Its a bit too late, this kind of situation is why I have asked to be removed from members lists. I have given my name to associations but I have never received any information from them and I object to being used for damages for subventions. my number in prison is still in me . Mick Waters has my address and phone number he could have contacted me .
With regard to Avoca House and the miss-information (or so it appears), I agree with Paddy that if you want to know more about Avoca then you need to contact Mick Waters of SOCA UK. Mick is very approchable and will be only too willing to inform you of the latest update regard Avoca.
Hello Pauline. The only person that can answer your question as to what SOCA UK does, is Mr. Mick Waters. I’m sorry I can’t be of any help but I’m sure Mick will be happy to answer your question. Paddy.
You can use the one the Emer gave as a petition. I will arrange to have it as a regular feature on my website. Paddy.
Paddy. is the link Emer gave us the one we use or will we have one here on your site?
Hello everyone, I did not want to be evasive, Couldn’t find the paper with the address, or the name of the association. its been a long time and I don’t know Dublin very well. So Paddy thank you for your help. What else does SOCA UK do?
the only house there is, is a block of apartments in lowerglanmire rd cork and according to its so called leader it is split up for repatriation and three are for the council for the homeless i should know i was stopped from moving in on the day agreed. how cruel was that?
by the so called kangaroo committee well as i was told by that self righteous heartless excuse of a man.
WELL SPOKEN CORNEILIUS YOU SEEM TO MAKE A LOT OF SENSE WELL DONE SIR.
BY THE WAY IF THIS GUY WHO CONTACTED PADDY HAD ANY TRUTH IN HIS LIFE HE WOULD WRITE HIS NAME HERE AND INFORM US OF HIS AIMS AND OBJECTIVES.
AND STOP BEING SO SHADY ANOUT IT AS HE CLAIMS TO BE REPRESENTING SURVIVORS IF NOT HE SHOULD BE REPORTED FOR CAUSING A PUBLIC DISTURBANCE.
SO IF AND ONLY IF HE HAS THESE SO CALLED 700 WHY THE SECRET AND WHY CONTACT PADDY?
I FEEL SO VERY SORRY FOR THESE SO CALLED 700 PEOPLE BECAUSE IF HIS ATTITUDE IS RIGHT AND HE IS SO GREAT HE IS GOING TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING HE WOULD SHARE IT WITH OUTHER SURVIVORS AND HAVE 7,000 SURVIVORS IF THERE IS THAT MANY.
I HATE THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE SHADY AND STIR UP TROUBLE.
http://www.petitions.ie/
OK LADS and GALS
Above link is petition.ie . If one of you start it, then everyone who wants to vote for a person to speak up for them can sign and then we will all know where we are
When you are doing the petition you can put all the names in and see who gets the most votes ie
Christine Buckley
John Kelly
Right of Place
Right of Peace
Alliance
Whoever there are more and don’t forget
PADDY DOYLE
We DO NEED to end the DEBATING style we have become schooled with and instead partake in sharing, listening and combining the various insights… this is the old way…
The wisdom of a well informed group is the result of shared insights, feelings and sensings and leads to best decision making. All discourse accepts that as new information arises, decisions can be reviewed. A spokes person carries the message, and makes no decisions and accepts no ‘deals’.
I haven’t a clue who this ‘certain person’ was. He made such an impression on me, I’ve forgotten his name. Paddy.
Well according to the guy that phoned me said categorically that he got 700 Votes (YES SEVEN HUNDRED VOTES) to represent people who were abused while in institutions. I’m only going on what I was told. I have a question though, well two actually; WHERE are these 700 people and WHO are they? It couldn’t be the figment of someone’s imagination embedded in their subconscious could it? Paddy.
David, is being cynical a sin? Probably is. Like yourself, I don’t believe for even a split second that there was any kind of meeting that gave 700 votes to any individual to represent people who were abused in institutions. 7 would be a good number at a meeting, 700 is stretching even the most vivid of imaginations – including mine. Can anyone enlighten us on this? Would anyone reading this please advise as to whether or not we are reading something from the Brothers Grimm. Isn’t the imagination a great thing all the same? BOYS OH BOYS!!! Maybe RENT A CROWD supplied the 700 people? Just a thought. Paddy.
Well according to the guy that ran me he got 700 Votes (YES SEVEN HUNDRED VOTES) to represent people who were abused while in institutions. I’m only going on what I was told. I have a question though, well two actually; WHERE are these 700 people and WHO are they? It couldn’t be the figment of someone’s imagination embedded in their subconscious could it? Paddy.
Before I was taken into the care of the church I was a little girl, they worked hard to convince me that I was a mamifer and as long as the lists go on that’s what I feel like. How could one person understand the needs of 700 like me, that’s out of all proportion. Its not about breaking records. it should be about us.
Hi every one Avoca House is no longer since last August it is now occupied by people living there I believe we have another one which is empty at present. Will let you know when I find out where it is and when it is open for us to use? I was there 6 weeks ago in Parnell Square along with Dorris, and it is full of people not survivors! Does any one know if we still have a house in Cork? If so where is it and who do we contact when we want to stay there.
Paddy I don’t believe for one minute (call me cynical if you like) that there was a meeting in Cork where 700 people voted on an agreed mandate to represent them. These days at any Survivors Groups meeting I’d imagine that they should consider themselves lucky if 7 people turn up let alone 700. Maybe the gentleman who contacted you was listening to Susan Boyle singing ‘I Dreamed A Dream.’
I am in Cork and haven’t heard of any meeting being held.
TO ERIC AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO DOES NOT KNOW ABOUT AVOCA HOUSE. THE HOUSE HAS BEEN GONE SINCE LAST AUGUST.THERE IS NO SURVIVORS LIVING THERE BUT ONLY RUSSIANS POLISH AND WHOEVER YA LIKE. I KNOW BECAUSE I KNOCKED ON THE DOOR IN MARCH. ALL THE FLATS ARE TAKEN UP. BUT THERE IS SUPPOSED TO BE ANOTHER HOUSE AVAILABLE TO US SOON IF THE GOVERNMENT CAN BE BOTHERED TO GET OFF THERE ARSES AND SORT IT OUT. I DON’T KNOW WHY YOU HAVE NOT HEARD SOONER KEEPING THE REAL SURVIVORS IN THE DARK AGAIN.
Was that a certain person we are aware of Paddy? If so gentle-man is an over statement…
Without interfering with a question directed to Pauline might I suggest that the question be put to Mr. Michael Waters of SOCA UK. He should have the answer and also should have no difficulty in giving it to you. Paddy
Just so you know what’s happening. I had a phone call yesterday from a gentleman in Cork yesterday saying that he had received 700 votes at a meeting mandating him to represent those present. I’ve done some checking since and I can’t find one person who has heard of a meeting being held where 700 people turned up. If anyone can put the record straight on this and if such a meeting did happen, then please let us all know. 700 votes is a lot of votes and a clear mandate……….if it’s not a figment of someone’s imagination! Paddy.
So Paddy, it is becoming clear that there already is considerable support for you within the community known as “survivors”. What really matters now is to convert the word “considerable” into numbers. By doing that the question of “How many do you represent” be answered in a decisive manner. ” My name is Paddy Doyle and I have been mandated by 5000 survivors to speak here today”. Now that would be an honest start for an honest man representing in an honest fashion the very people who have encountered the very opposite of that quality. There is no reason why it would not be 10000 mandates in time. So Paddy will you be our champion and put that link for registering as a mandate giver?.
Pauline
Where exactly is Avoca house, address or location please and how do you access it
Thanks
AND SALLY WE NEED MORE TO BE AS BRAVE
Paddy Doyle it is a great idea as Rose said. By the way paddy it would have been a victory for survivors if they had walked.
I just want to say here THESE SO CALLED GROUPS CHOSEN ONLY BY THEMSELVES CAN F… RIGHT OFF, WHO THE F… DO THEY THINK THEY ARE?
WE SHOULD FIND OUT ABOUT ANY OTHER “SECRET MEETINGS” AND PROTEST STRONGLY OUTSIDE IF WE ARE NOT ALLOWED IN.
AND IF WE DO NOT FIND OUT ABOUT THESE MEETINGS THEN WE MUST MUST LET THE MEDIA KNOW OUR FEELINGS A SURVIVORS.
WELL DONE PADDY.
Well I do want that. Anyone else?
David, yes it is sad and even pathetic that neither Mr. O’Brien or Mr. Kelly have never spoken to me. I’m told they see me as ‘a threat’. As to what that’s all about, your guess is as good as mine. Sally does speak very sincerely and with great passion about survivors but there are those representatives, so called, that would bad mouth both her and me. At the last meeting held in government buildings with the Taoiseach and his senior ministers, Sally and I had almost to force our way in as some of the ‘representative groups’ informed staff that if we were allowed into the meeting, they would walk out. How infantile is is that sort of behaviour/attitude. I don’t go to these meetings for the good of my health or to gain access to the media. I go as an independent voice, speaking about the real issues as I see them that confront those of us who were abused while in institutions. There you have it David. Best wishes. Paddy.
Hi Rose. There isn’t just at the moment but it can be arranged if that’s what enough people want. Paddy.
So, is there a link we can go to where those of us who wish Paddy to be our voice can register our names?
Paddy is it true (not that I don’t believe you) that O’Brien and Kelly have never ever spoke to you? Do they really think that they are a cut above the rest of us? You said previously that only one person came to speak to you at the meeting with Taoiseach and that was Sally Mulready. I honestly believe that she is more down to earth and much more focused on fighting for survivors. Kelly, O’Brien (the type of names we used to read about in our history books) appear to be just for themselves and what they can gain. You can hold your head high Paddy as it seems to me that you have much more respect from fellow survivors.
I’ve no idea whatever what Mr. Kelly or Mr. O’Brien are doing as neither of them have anything to do with me, in fact, neither of them have ever spoken to me……….ever! I was at the meeting you refer to, once the minutes of that meeting become available they will be published here or on the government website. Best wishes. Paddy.
Can anyone answer what’s wrong with the other men and women that were at the meetings last week. People like Mike O’Brian, John Kelly, ect ect??
I hope you can fill me in on this
Hello Eric, well yes I can tell you. First it is run by Mr. and Mrs Waters. As a place to go to for overseas survivors, there are lovely flats, but I spent a very tense time there. The flat was very damp so I asked for a change. This took time. Whatever you do don’t forget your tea bags, coming from overseas the first cup of tea has to be brought with you. Nothing very pleasant about welcome back or anything of the sort but its cheap.
I don’t know of Avoca House either.
Dear Pauline
Avoca house, pse tell us more
I never heard of the place, where is it ,who runs it,who can acess it etc
tks
These lists are secret, how come? I was informed by Mrs Waters that she had 3000 people on her list, that makes it impossible to manage as 3000 survivors + their families all waiting their turn to stay in Avoca house, is just impossible. It would mean that we could come to Dublin about once in every 15 or more years. So all that is out of control. How did that happen?
Hi, Paddy,
I have been reading your site for a while now and from doing so I think you are the person I would like to speak for me. I have gone to about 4 meetings of different groups, we give them our names and addresses but hear absolutely nothing from them. Your site has been the most informative. Would you be our voice Paddy? we sure do need one.
Rose
Charles,Robert and others.
I am watching for a while now and at last
We seem to be going in a direction, mmm electronic mandate , word of mouth , good ideas guys n gals
what about an invitation on this site to give a mandate ,if one wished to, to a named person such as Paddy if one wished ..
I ..Name.. authorise and give mandate to ..Named person… to act as a representative on my behalf in relation to institutional abuse and /or child welfare issues
Needs working on I know but you get the idea ladies and gents
at last someone with an ACTUAL mandate
What you think padddy are we getting somewhere on this seed of an issue.
It is despicable that anyone should be on any list that they don’t want to be on. that i do agree for certain paddy.
and this is all about abuse past present and future of children’s lives.
all children deserve a voice, the world is THEIR future.
we were not to have a future from our childhood so we need to make sure our children are protected by professional, qualified, POLICE CHECKED BACKGROUNDS.
no religious freaks who lie about their sexual feelings to meddle in our schools.
SCHOOLING OUR CHILDREN SO THEY CAN SURVIVE AND LEARN ON HOW TO HAVE A GREAT FUTURE.
NO RELIGION KEEP THAT OUT OF THE SCHOOLS.
free the country from this dictating church.
as i said in one of paddy’s columns the people did not vote in any pope, it was an inside job. no one knew these popes before they were made up. what kind of democracy is that.
even the people who believed in Jesus Christ knew who they were following and why.
i personally think and hope that all survivors here mean well in all areas.
no one should ever be forced to do anything that do not want.
we have to be responsible for our own names and opinions and have the freedom of respect to one and all.
I am prepared to consider doing what people want me to do but not to just go off shouting and roaring about what people who have been abused want. It is despicable that anyone should be on any list that they don’t want to be on. Let’s see how things go from here. Paddy.
Hello Paddy do you want to do this? I mean be our voice. I wouldn’t want you to feel pushed into things by us and if so does that mean we can be taken off the lists of these invisible group leaders, I would feel safer.
Robert, Paddy can do a lot as we have seen but with this he needs help, lots of help and engagement.That is if Paddy accepts our mandates calling on him to begin the founding of an organisation dedicated to the welfare of survivors and the welfare of children. In short our own ombudsman with a powerful mandate to speak for the silent and defend the defenceless.To be concrete we need an infrastructure that serves the children of Ireland’s “Long Night”.
Charles O’Rourke well spoken. If every thing is made clear on how all is to be presented to this government by a mandate then I too choose Paddy,
But to put this on paddy alone I feel is a big burden it needs team work.
A spokesperson with the witnesses of a report of our own made by the survivors requests to be presented to the government.
All we need is a place to visit where these people will meet that spokesman and the witnesses our own can i use the word “( PANEL )”? for their requests to be written. that is easy for all survivors to get to.
This can be titled the SURVIVOR’S REPORT or something
I DON’T KNOW JUST SOMETHING LIKE THIS. SORRY IF I HAVE OFFENDED ANYONE.
even if we had half of that 15,000 or a large sum of them would make the difference.
it would be hard but if one survivor can contact their friends and families then the next survivor do the same then the next again and so on we just might accomplish this idea and make it happen.
by just asking as an individual your friends and families you would marvel how many people would that gather alone.
we just need some one make a list of names and a phone number to ring of who is willing to turn up.
why not start with the media and advertise it as some one else said the radio and newspapers.
by this we would know if the media would support support our cause. if we believe in ourselves we can do this
Will do. Paddy
Paddy, correct “MY Mandate2” to “MY MANDATE”.
Well Paddy I will give you “MY MANDATE” so as to speak for me. You have it in writing here. Do you need anything else?. Now if others begin writing out their “Mandates” here on this site them you only have to count. You mentioned the need for an organisation and rightly so, may I suggest counting the mandates electronically so as to have the empowerment necessary when next meeting the government. The goal within the next week should be a “Thousand Mandates for Paddy Doyle” and rising. At least this is a template for the start of a movement towards the prevention of abuse which is the over-riding issue here. There are horse dealers in the house and Paddy Doyle is no horse dealer. Empowered by these mandates we have a voice through you Paddy. Like you said Paddy we must have an organisation that will make an impact on the government otherwise we are throwing punches in the air as they tend to do at horse markets. Compensation, the monument and a broad spectrum of issues concerning the welfare of children are within the remit of such an organisation. The potential to produce a further generation of abused children is still intact in our republic and this is what I seek to abolish. To do this we must have an effective organisation that channels that demand right into to nerve centre of our society.
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The point of having some TRUSTED and CREDIBLE person in charge is precisely that the Government would make accessible its file and database, plus fund an awareness campaign.
Raymond
I remember that one Andrew. There was another called “May is the month of Mary, the month we all love so well, etc.” I also remember when it was about the time of year (end of April/early May) the Primroses came into bloom and the classroom nun would send us out onto the hospital grounds to pick them so she could adorn the classroom and have the primroses all around the statue of Our Lady.
Now there’s an idea David! Any idea’s as to where we might get the manure to fertilise the said tree. I have a few ideas. Anyone got a wheelbarrow? Let’s have a loan of it. This all has to be done before the hunting season comes in and the Peacock gets a backside full of buckshot! Paddy.
That’s the big question. One thing is certain and that is that Paddy Doyle is not going to be the voice of anyone without a clear mandate, I’ve advised the Taoiseach (Irish Prime Minister and other senior government Ministers that I am at this moment an independent voice without a mandate to speak on behalf of anyone. Thanks for the suggestion though – I appreciate it. Paddy.
Keep at it ‘Granny’ you’re doing well. Get stuck into the discussion/debate? Paddy.
Glad it worked. Hope to hear more from you now. Paddy.
While I’d like to see something like this working, I can’t imagine how one would get 15,000 ‘men and women’ to head to Dublin for the day. That’s not to say it couldn’t be tried. Remember that people who went to the Redress Board came from all over the world – getting them to come to Ireland to march while not impossible, is a big ask. Paddy.
“Queen of the Angels and queen of the May” Yer not that only one the belted out that one Andrew. Sing it loud and sing it clear. Not a possum in sight! Paddy.
I remember the May processions in particular down the long avenue of the convent. One of the the hymns had a line :
‘O mary we’ll crown thee with blossoms today’
But I kinda misheard the lyrics and used to sing (at the top of my voice):
‘o mary we’ll crown thee with possums today’
Robert, that would be great.
As for organization. You would have to inform all weeks in advance.
Would you get all 15,000 men and women to head to Dublin for the day??
Wow It worked .
Sorry Paddy I tried posting my views up on your great site but as my computer has not worked for a week which has now been fixed I need to allow cookies not sure how to do that I am just trying again. I am a computer total Novice. I can read posts.
We need a strong voice. Would Paddy Doyle be that voice?
David
with respect re funny stories I will refer you to the American reply when surrounded by the Germans at Bastone who sought the Americans surrender
NUTS
No nothing funny in my time except the screams, the lice, the constant fear, the f******* hunger,and no Mammy, yeah real bleedin funny eh Oh yes ye blacked clothed b******s were real comedians
and this was not Dachau but Dublin
TO ANYONE WHO CAME UP WITH THE IDEA OF A TRUST FUND IN THE FIRST PLACE? SOME SMART ASS BIGWIG. HAS ANY ONE ELSE WHO HAS BEEN ABUSED LETS SAY IN AMERICA. HAD TO SET UP A TRUST FUND FOR THEM? WHY IRELAND? WHERE WILL THEY PUT THE EXTRA MONEY? IN ANOTHER TRUST FUND LIKE THE EDUCATION FUND SO NO ONE CAN ACCESS IT AGAIN. LIKE WE’VE ALL SAID WE’RE ALL GETTING OLDER IF BRIAN COWAN THINKS ANYTHING OF THE CHILDREN GROWING UP IN IRELAND. HE SHOULD LISTEN TO US SO WE CAN MOVE ON AND LET US TAKE CARE OF OUR FAMILY’S IN PEACE NOT POVERTY.
Something to cheer us up David and Paddy I am in stitches as we had the same thing said. lololol.
We used to have competitions on how many beads we could swallow as we were making rosary beads later we though if only we could swallow the lot we could finish making them.
We thought it was funny to see them in the toilet later where they belonged.
Lol Paddy. My imagination pictures you as some sort of Beanstalk which Jack is trying to climb. Pity we couldn’t plant some of these seeds in the Abbey/Peacock Theatre.
David, you’ve a great memory. It was an apple seed. I now have a huge apple tree growing out of the top of my head. It’s just as well, I’ve a wheelchair to get me around in. Walking would be very dangerous – I might topple over and kill someone in the process. Paddy :-)
I attended the last meeting of survivors of abuse with the Government and I can emphatically say that NO VOTE WAS TAKEN on the setting up of a Trust fund. Anyone that puts out a story to the contrary is mischief making and being grossly unfair to people who were abused while in institutions. I repeat, NO VOTE WAS TAKEN. One or perhaps two people at most, spoke about the setting up of a Trust Fund. Those are the indisputable facts of the matter and are TRUE. Paddy.
As someone who attended the last meeting of survivors of abuse I can emphatically say that NO VOTE WAS TAKEN regarding the setting up of a Trust Fund. The issue was raised by one or perhaps two people at the most recent meeting with the Government but I repeat, NO VOTE WAS TAKEN, to suggest that a vote was taken is mischief making in the extreme. Whatever you can do to squash this story, that’s what it is a story, a figment of someone’s imagination, do it please. Paddy.
There’s a rumour floating that at the last meeting with the Government a vote was taken to set up Trust Fund – this is untrue, NO VOTE WAS TAKEN at that meeting or at any other meeting held with the Government.
That is a good idea robert but it would take some organising.
You reminded me of the processions. Where I was (hospital in Westmeath) we used to have processions, particularly in the month of May. The nuns used to tell us that May was the Holy month of Mary so off we would twaddle (disabled kids) and what hilarity as we tried to stay at the back of the procession whilst always been aware of a beady eyed nun observing our every move.
I was just wondering, whilst I realise there was a lot of abuse in these places, if anybody could share any antidotes of amusing or funny times in their institutions. I remember Paddy making a comment on ‘States of Fear’ that he was told that if he swallowed an apple (or was it an orange) seed that it would grow up inside him. I thought that was quite funny. I would love to read what pranks were played on the nuns or brothers. I appreciate that what happened to us was serious but lets have a little laughter on this forum. I bet we have more in common than just the abuse. Cowboys & Indians for instance!
Symbolism rings out here of what we had to do as children to what we need to do now as grown ups.
the musicians represent Artane boys band an the procession speaks for itself.
when we were little we were forced to walk the processions for the church, now it is time to walk a procession for ourselves against the church and government decisions.
so is there anyone out there good at organising such a thing?
this walk should be one of the longest walks we have witnessed in Ireland. at our own pace the longer the better as the media will see we mean business.
a day of walking so at night the candles and torches will light up the way. possibly from one city to Dublin.
in an orderly fashion.
musicians can lead the way to the front door of the Dail.
where we can hand in our envelopes of every survivor’s needs to a government official and hope the media will witness our voice once and for all.
my banner would read no more illegal groupies so there.
then keep more copies of what is in the envelope to repeat the walk if needed.
AND STILL NO PERSONAL APOLOGY FROM GOVERNMENT OR CHURCH.
WE ARE NOT SEEN AS SURVIVORS OR VICTIMS OF THE SYSTEM.
THERE IS NO BILL TO SAY WE ARE TO BE SUPPORTED
BY ANY GOVERNMENT OFFICE.
IT IS AS IF WE DO NOT EXIST.
THEY ARE WAITING FOR US TO TRIP OVER OURSELVES IN WHAT WE SAY AS THEY IGNORE US HERE SO THEY CAN LOCK US UP AGAIN IF WE SAY SOMETHING WRONG IN OUR ANGER TO THEIR SHAME
THE EVIDENCE OF THIS CRUELTY IS THERE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE IN THE REPORTS BUT THESE REPORTS ARE ONLY FOR THE USE OF EDUCATION ON HOW BOTH THE CHURCH AND GOVERNMENT WENT WRONG AND HOW THEY WERE FOUND OUT.
NOT TO PUT RIGHT BECAUSE IF THIS WAS SO THEY WOULD CLOSE THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND DEAL WITH THE SUPPORT FOR SURVIVORS BY NOW AND ONLY THIS WAY WILL THEY PROTECT OUR CHILDREN.
THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED AT ALL.
MY NEW BORN BETTER NOT BE FORCED TO PRAY IN A ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AS I WILL FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL TO PROTECT HER FROM THIS DISGUSTING BEHAVIOR.
HOW STUPID ARE THE GOVERNMENT WITH ALL THE PROOF NEEDED AT THEIR HANDS THAT MEN AND WOMEN WHO CLAIM TO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SEX WANT TO RUN OUR SCHOOLS.
Other option is have local meetings in individual Counties across the Country and UK on the same day at the same time.
Let the media inform about scope/ date/ time/ place of these meetings.
……..”Action is greater than words”………
Well said ANNE…
Well said EVERYONE…
We are all right…
So lets stop talking and lets get moving.
What could we do first??
Mandate??
As Raymond mentioned, use the internet, web page. But my fear is that not all people have internet access.
So I’d say post letters out to individual survivors. Asking them what do they want.
What do you think??
AS FAR AS THIS GOVERNMENT IS CONCERNED ALL WAS PAID AND THEY WANT THEIR 50% BACK FROM THE CHURCH.
IT SOUNDS LIKE WE ARE STILL THE VICTIMS
I NEVER KNEW WHAT THE WORD “SURVIVOR” MEANT.
THE ONLY WAY I CAN CALL AND SEE MYSELF AS A SURVIVOR IS WHEN I HAVE COME THROUGH THE OTHER SIDE A VICTOR.
I HONESTLY ASK YOU ALL IS THIS POSSIBLE? REALLY
I agree with you Paddy that an incessant cry for money is not going to resolve the broader issue of abuse, but surely compensation is the only thing left for victims who feel cheated out of proper compensation for the years of abuse inflicted on them by those in authority. It is I feel up to the statutory bodies responsible to resolve the broader issue of abuse. An education fund and counselling is already there for those who wish to avail of it so the only thing left for the victims who suffered horrific physical, psychological, emotional and sexual abuse is proper compensation for the years of hell that they have endured because of it.
And it must be remembered that those who walked out walked because of money – none of them walked because of abuse or the protection of children or vulnerable communities from abuse.
The religious orders are STILL regarded as if they have holy halos to some degree or another – The Ryan Report says different. We ALWAYS knew different and the Ryan Report vindicated us.
They still have some control of our schools, or hospitals, hospices …. 800 individual abusers were exposed in the Ryan Report, thousands of individual abuses by these people were exposed.
Paddy I think you make a very valid point. You have touched on something that needed to be said but many did not want to speak about it for fearing the wrath of other survivors.
Without wanting to offend any other survivors I feel there is a tendency that the perception from the Irish citizens, who supported us (maybe not all) will now see us as vultures to make the most out of any cash that becomes available via CORI or wherever else. I am not accusing anybody of anything unseeingly but we do appear to be slowly drifting away from the issue of abuse and how we can ensure it doesn’t happen again, instead there seems to be a lot of focus on lining pockets.
The promises by some group leaders (particularly in Ireland) that survivors will receive cash from the CORI fund is very misleading, misguided and unfair. I agree that all survivors (including the Magdalene women and the institutions not included in the Redress) should have a voice with regard to CORI cash and buildings but let us not forget to continue to address the issue of abuse.
Dear Paddy
I read with great interest and I agree with Dorris the pain that she and many thousands have felt throughout those dark days in Ireland will never leave us we all know they had the power over innocent children and as I have said before they have left a trail of destruction in their wake HITLER WOULD HAVE BEEN PROUD OF THEM NAZI’S IN UNIFORMS NUNS PRIESTS AND OF COURSE THE DREADFUL CHRISTIAN BROTHERS WHO I HOPE ALL WILL ROT IN HELL AS WE ALWAYS WERE TOLD AS CHILDREN THEY ARE NO BETTER THEN THE TALIBAN EITHER THEY WERE EDUCATED AND THEN FILTERED THROUGHOUT THE INSTITUTIONS TO CAUSE HAVOC THIS IS THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG AND THE STORIES WILL GET WORSE UNLESS WE ALL UNIT AS ONE THERE IS NO HOPE AND IT WILL GO ON FOR MANY YEARS TO COME AND YES WE WILL BE DEAD AND BURIED BEFORE WE GET JUSTICE AND MONEY WILL NEVER COMPENSATE FOR ALL THAT TRAUMA WE ALL NEED HEALING Gabrielle North UK
When we use the term “SURVIVORS” I only hope we include the Magdalene laundry women in this as they were only children too.
All abuse of a culture deserve attention and our support they are still alive too and also suffering just as badly.
if this abuse is not dealt with in our life, how is it going to read in history?, IN OUR FAVOUR OR THEIRS
( the government and religious.)
This is clearly the hottest and most important concern for all involved here. Many views are expressed, people even agree to have different opinions, how wonderful! Money is never a problem, until you have none, or not enough. And there are many MANY who are in dire need of financial help. Money and Compensation is also the yardstick and meter to measure the size of the crime in Ireland (more so than in other jurisdictions sometimes), and there is no greater injustice than the abuses spelled out in the Reports.
There is much talk of MANDATE. For this reason, representatives / leaders must be chosen. So where do you chose from?
It seems to me that the FIRST requirement is to have a LIST of the people to be represented. Such list could be set up in the form of an ONLINE PETITION. In the strictest of confidence – no visible details – a person can log in and register their details on that list. The list would outline its aims and aspirations (terms and conditions maybe), so as to dispell any misunderstanding and ambiguity.
Different organizations could co-exist
under this common-interest Umbrella Group, although deprived and ill-compensated individuals must have priority.
The SECOND important point is that this List should be set up in a place which is */Well-known + */Trusted and Credible.
I am not saying Paddy, or even the God Squad……..but I suppose I AM really saying Paddy !
The FOCAL point would have to catch the eye
ON ENTRY to the website. I see a big, bold and red “ONE VOICE” caption, under the HOME-sign of the TOP BAR of the web page, leading to the link where you register on the petition.
Finally:
With everybody’s agreement, the panel in charge might have the “best people available”, whatever skills are required and regardless of background, but the List would ONLY be for Victims. This goes without saying of course, but I thought I’d better say it anyway.
Who Knows ? At this stage, the Government might even WANT to find a way to sort out and resolve this issue, and maybe they don’t know how. Present them with solutions!
One for All
All for One
Raymond
all religion should be banned from every single school in ireland an libraries set up for families who wish to research their own faith.
no one on this earth should have a right to teach others how they believe or force others their faith.
the only father should be the father and mother of the family
who protect their own.
the library is there if people want it simple as that.
we all know far too well religion stinks to the high heavens
debating on the internet is not such a good idea as paddy says we just need to understand each others point of views and the needs of survivors.
if and when survivors meet up then we can set up the documents on all we have to say and present them through a main office we believe would see appropriate action taken.
but firstly we have to get
ALL SURVIVORS TO MEET UP.
WE ALL HAVE PERSONAL NEEDS AND WE CAN PLACE THEM IN AN ENVELOPE FOR EACH SURVIVOR TO BE GIVEN TO WHOM WE BELIEVE WILL DEAL WITH THE ISSUES IN VOLVED.
and keep copies for references, just in case we are not happy with the outcome. where we can appeal.
this is just an idea i only hope helps us move on from here.
but please take note on the latest post paddy has put up as we can see children are still at risk. we need to show our feelings on this too.
we cannot allow this to go on. we only know too well of what can happen here if we ignore this.
Yes paddy you are right in saying that there is a lot to be done on the issue of abuse. As you have stated there is the broader issue, the bigger picture.
That is for humanity to deal with in a whole, which will take a number of years.
In my opinion, men and women that were abused as children DESERVE to be FULLY COMPENSATED.
As my father received a mere 60,000 Euro for not only his life’s torment but also our families life struggle.
To me that isn’t near what we deserve.
And I am sure there are a lot more people out there that feel the same way
Even the “General Public” would stand by this whole hearty.
“I like to stress that these are my own opinions. Just like you all, i need to get stuff off my chest too. So i hope I haven’t offended any one in the process. If so please say so”
Ken
In the Irish Times, Mrs Buckley is described as an outspoken survivor of sexual abuse. Who said she had been sexually abused. Was it her or the newspapers. This is how things get deformed having met Mrs B the day she arrived in nightmare land I can assure you that the nuns never took the risk. The only man in the place was just as scared as us. But the newspapers ignored the rumours then and they are doing the same thing now. So perhaps they are the ones who should put things right
I don’t intend to have this debate over the internet and especially here. All I’m saying is that what appears to me to be an incessant cry for money, is not going to resolve the broader issue of abuse. Paddy.
Paddy, I ask you then,
How else can you heal and put right all the lives that are damaged from this evil???
Religious orders destroyed the lives of some many people.
This will effect generations for years to come.
In my opinion Religious orders should do every thing in there power to help you, us and our children.
If they don’t we should stand up and be counted, stand up for our rights, stand up for our children.
My biggest fear is that there is now a feeling among the general public who were firmly on the side of people abused while in institutions and elsewhere, that all such people now want is money. The issue of abuse is about a heck of a lot more than money. I hold the view and will continue to hold it, that we must never lose sight of that. Paddy.
I think they are a few good people out there as it is, Paddy you were at the meeting with some of them last week..
In my opinion they are two main options,
I) Trust funds/Educational funds/ Counselling
II) Cheques
So maybe a ballot on this would do???
The only thing is to make sure that the right compensation is paid in either case.
The right compensation is what was stated in THE RYAN REPORT and nothing less.
David
re yours of the 18th apr, well said sir.
and as for the rest of you , do some thing ie seek information ,ask questions from TDs Senators Public officials Etc in writing, cost only a stamp!!
Take a look at where these leaders get their mandate from !!! exactly , nowhere!!
how did they end up on boards committees etc
where did any monies given from public funds go and is it accountable or vouched.
eg, that little affair in the south what happened , are Mr Sherlock’s concerns now at ease.
Who paid the legal fees for that little expedition to the High Court recently, was grant money used.
cmon guys co operate remember survivors have votes.
ooooopps again
by the way does anyone know the latest of what is happening at the right of place?
the last thing i heard was the so called leader is taking survivors to the high court. who is paying for that i wonder?
all i know is it was to resume after christmas.
this site is getting very interesting. at last people are looking for ideas.
ken well spoken again. corneilious thanks for the explanations.
and everyone else for the powerful views
and paddy for keeping things in prospective.
i only hope we can get more people looking at what is going on here.
How do you propose to get a ballot organised Catherine? Is the ballot designed to vote for someone to act in the best interest of survivors of abuse. Paddy.
It would be one of the great achievements of our time to get even half that number gathered in any part of Ireland or elsewhere in the world. Perhaps it will happen. I never rule anything out…………or in. Paddy.
As some of you have said…. a large meeting….
just imagine 15,000 people + family members + supporters meeting in the centre of Ireland….
For one, I wouldn’t trust the government with any ballet papers. The other is some people don’t have or maybe cant use the internet.
To me the only true and personal way to get in contact with all survivors is by letter. Maybe get the National News to broadcast information about this letter/ballet. But send the letter to each any every person.
May an independent observer could assess the ballot, some one like paddy or Mike o Brian.
In my opinion we need to take nothing less than what was stated in the RYAN REPORT.
Anything less is an insult……
I agree with a ballot it is the only fair way for survivors to have their say.Catherine.
There is a world of difference between ‘spokesperson’ and ‘representative’ in that a spokes person facilitates communication, and has no decision making role, always referring with those she or he is speaking for, and carrying messages….
Representatives, as our elected representatives so often demonstrate tend towards, much to our chagrin, make ‘deals’ and then inform those they ‘represent’ often with no intention of changing the deal they have made.
The victims of any kind of abuse must be enabled, empowered to speak, truthfully, clearly, honestly; even if that is at time ‘uncomfortable’ and understandably angry.
Groups with ‘leaders’ tend to be all too easily co-opted by Institutional Powers, and that is the problem we are dealing with here – how to avoid such co-option, dilution and manipulation.
A ballot is a great idea as we found out when we went to the Birmingham meeting last Sunday. We really do need to move at a very fast pace now.I don’t want to go back to the Redress Board. WE HAVE BEEN STUNNED SICKENED AND SILENT FOR TOO LONG. Everyone meeting is a great idea power in numbers. Just say where and when ill be there. We’re doing our bit over here in England for THE REAL SURVIVORS BUT THE SOONER WE GET THOSE BALLOT PAPERS THE BETTER. Dorris
Andrew – I totally agree with you with regard to a ballot for all survivors. Mick Waters (SOCA UK) proposed this very idea to the Taoiseach during the survivors meetings recently.
And, as you say, the government have access to survivors addresses via the Commission and the Redress Board.
I felt there was a time when survivors groups were essential for survivors who could get to meetings. We needed updating with the Commission, Redress Board and any other topic at the time.
But now with the CORI money and buildings I don’t think it is right for any survivors leaders to speak on our behalf. Whatever I may think or may not think with what should happen with the money put forward from the congregations is immaterial. I do not have the right to speak for any other survivor and neither do leaders of groups. I believe that the only democratic way forward is that all survivors have a ballot on what they want. However we do need to get the ball rolling because before we know it the government will be having their summer recess which means survivors waiting longer.
There is a lot of very good reading through-out this site we need to read and take on board.
the research material is at hand thanks to your hard work and commitment. Paddy
Very well put Paddy we need a very good broad structure in place so all areas of this issue is dealt with regards Robert
Dorris, lovely to meet you so to speak!..Yes your absolutely right! we need to do this together..In the past I’ve let Paddy know how I feel on this matter and I also think he’s got it in him to do something. He has so much contact with the Gov/media e.c.t
we need help now. But let’s stay in touch now. I used to go to the Manchester one Doriss. Not any more. No use.
Bernadette, that’s a good idea regarding the add, and to force a meeting and urgently.
Anne
I’m very reluctant to give advice to anyone. I don’t have a mandate to do so. It seems to me that the issue of “survivors of abuse” is doomed to sink without trace unless a proper organisational structure is put in place by, elected representatives with a broad view of what should happen. This is an issue bigger than just seeking money from religious orders. If that’s what it’s reduced to as appears to be what’s happening, then we are all in danger of losing sight of the real issue – the abuse of children in the care of religious orders. It’s a time for clear thinking and clear planning. If the comments posted on this website are anything to go by, the “survivors representatives” currently in position are not what people want. That raises the question: What do we as people who were through the various institutions really want? It’s my belief that until such time as we can answer that question, nothing will move forward. I stress, these are just my thoughts, nothing more and nothing less. Paddy.
hi ken maybe an advert in some main papers uk or on the radio ? and one big meeting of all the survivors? we need to fight together now not be split devided we fall together we could well conquer and i for one have my own voice and not before time we need to pull together to win this one why is no one asking us what we want and need ? has any other country set up trust funds for survivors ? why do we need one ?who will run it? who will make money from it not the survivors thats for sure we are all getting older so they should just devide the funds equally and send us all a check then we can decide what we want to do with it ,and who is going to pay the cost of setting up this fund? offices staff ect we all would like an end to this so we can at last get on with the rest os our lives with out being controlled yet again .
please add to this list if you have any questions as we need the truth about what the hell is going on never mind all the heavy documents sent out to us by certain groups they were far to heavy for us as survivors to understand.
there was never any one to explain what they meant they never had the time. all figures and very complicated writing and tons of it too aaaah
AS IF WE WOULD KNOW WITH THE KIND OF EDUCATION WE GOT AND THE SURVIVOR GROUP NEVER GAVE THIS ONE THOUGHT.MMM
but the groupies had courses for themselves.
Ken, Robert, Annie especially Paddy thank you so much for keeping this site open. I am willing to give Paddy my phone number to pass it on to you guys and my email address. We can keep in contact that way.These group leaders have never done anything for our group either. I am in the UK with the Manchester group. Its been a long hard haul and its only now we are getting some information our way. Maybe Brian Cowan should look on PADDY DOYLE’s site and see our comments for himself AND GET AN INSIGHT AS TO WHAT THE REAL SURVIVORS WANT. Annie I were in St. Josephs in Clifden as well 1957 to 1965. My brother was in Letterfrack. Not one of us left them HELL HOLES unscratched. But now we are stronger and we know how to fight these back stabbing bastards. We’ve all seen the light and the only way is up.LOVE TO YOU ALL DORRIS.
hi ken well spoken sir we could learn something from the stardust families who have suffered that drastic fire in dublin where they lost their children (my heart goes out to them) they stuck together and fought and fought with legal representatives.
surely we have some survivors out there who is fully qualified in law and politics who could represent us all as one unit.
someone who can legally make our voice heard and fight for our rights as survivors who need the proper support and look into the mess caused by certain groups who claimed to represent us.
we were all led up the path of betrayal by those who
1. do not know any of us.
2. who will not talk openly to the media on our behalf
3. who have not listed any documentation on the true needs of survivors.
4. who forced their opinions upon us.
5. who agreed terms and conditions we were not aware of.
6. who held illegal meetings with bishops and government claiming they represent us.
7. who ignored the pain and sufferings of their so called members.
8. who should be asked for legal documents saying they were asked by survivors for them to represent them.
9. who should prove they they have fulfilled the files on requests by their so called members to date.
10 who should prove that survivors agreed to the time limit on redress.
11. for the government and religious to prove they have sent a personal apology to each and every survivor.
12. how did they get to say they represent us survivors
13. were survivors fully aware of what this whole thing about
14. why is there such a long waiting list for education and counseling fees who agreed this was enough for survivors needs
this is just a taste of some questions i believe are left unanswered.
Paddy, what would you advise us? Do you have any ideas. Ken, I’m thinking the only way is to contact each other, thanks to Paddy’s site once again, we can communicate and there’s a lot of us here already. Perhaps we demand a meeting with the Religious/Government and all meet in together. If ” The Support leaders ” want to come along then so be it..but this needs to be done.
I’m always open to suggestions.
07895479387..evenings..
Regards everyone..enjoy your Sunday.
Anne.
The Government has a list of all the applicants to the Redress Board and the Child Abuse commission. A democratic ballot could easily be organised …. if there was goodwill from the Government…..
Yes, we have all lost out on a good life.
It is time for all 15,000 men and women plus all there families to step up and speak aloud
………We need to stand together………
The only way to do this is to get in contact with ALL survivors.
Any ideas???
doris you are another great human being that this country is short of, no matter what we have gone through we survive some how.
we now need to unite as survivors and try and get all comments to one place for the government to know we are now a movement to fight for our rights as what we most certainly deserve.
not to waver to their rubbish and bad treatment of neglect.
they honestly think the broken down system of counseling and education will be enough.
there is NOTHING IN BLACK AND WHITE TO SAY YOU AS A SURVIVOR IS TO HAVE ALL THE SUPPORT YOU NEED FROM ANY GOVERNMENT OFFICE, NO BOOKLET TO EXPLAIN HOW THE WELFARE CAN HELP NOTHING IN THE COUNCILS FOR HOUSING, THIS IS WHAT THESE SO CALLED GROUPIES GET MONEY FOR AND ALL GOES ON WASTE SUCH AS PAPER WORK AND ADMINISTRATION COSTS YET THEY GET MONEY FROM THE RELIGIOUS TOO.
Well said, Andrew, Dorris, Robert Ken and everyone else.
I have wrote my letters, let’s see if I get my reply’s?
Also, I was only thinking today of a Sister named (Sister Philomena) From ST-Joseph’s in Cliffden, just how cruel she was to me and other’s in that prison. I remember the rage and redness in her face, the constant anger from her as she would cane me constantly. I remember being so cold in the winter especially, and we’d be outside in the snow and she would call us over for any excuse and ask us to hold our hands out and cane our hand, I was 7yrs old, and I didn’t know why she was doing this?..my hands were purple with the cold and the thrashings left me with chilblains and blisters.
I now know sister Philomena is still in Tuam?.. I would like to meet her to ask her why she was so cruel? why would she cane us for scavenging out of the pigs buckets because we so hungry. Why, she would kane us around the head and body if we didn’t hold our hands together/fingers overlapping properly whilst saying prayers.. and why we had to pray in knickers and vests on stone cold floors. The fear we felt every evening at 6 o’clock, was so disturbing for children to go through that. I’d be so tense, heart beating fast wondering when they circled us slowly like sharks, would it be me for the beating. 10yrs I spent in that place.
There is no ifs n but’s about this it is our right to be compensated the equivalent of Hight Court payments as promised!
I’m along with anyone else who’s still fighting.
Shame on them for putting us through this.
Anne O’flaherty.
Robert been reading your letter with tears in my eyes. Your words are perfect so true. NO family No partner no nothing just a life completely destroyed.And knowing how many BILLIONS. Them bastards have robbed us of. WE WILL FIGHT THE FIGHT and carry on fighting for ALL CHILDREN EVERY WHERE. NO more having meetings where there is only tea and CHIT CHAT and secret meetings behind our backs. LETS GROW SOME BALLS AND GET RID OF THESE SO CALLED LEADERS…TOGETHER. BECAUSE TOGETHER WE ARE POWERFUL BECAUSE I THINK WE WANT THE SAME THING.
we need to make known strongly how we all feel even about the government and church MESSENGERS of CORRUPT PROPAGANDA the so called survivor group.
NO SUCH GROUP IS WELCOMED BY TRUE SURVIVORS THE ONLY VOICE WE HAVE ARE THOSE WHO FIGHT OPENLY FOR THE RIGHT OF SURVIVORS FOR SURVIVORS.
the only way we can be heard is directly to the news and media.
JUST AS MICHAEL DID ALOUD.
MICHAEL MY HEART GOES OUT TO YOU AND ALL OTHERS.
THIS INCLUDES PADDY DOYLE FOR THIS HARD WORK HE DOES ON THIS SITE. THE MEDIA SHOULD TAKE NOTES
grown people who were imprisoned wrongly deserved the compensation they got. a huge pay out for each of them.
one only has to think how dreadful it was for children to be imprisoned, who have had all their possibilities of a healthy life ripped out of them and cast to the four winds.
for most we are still in those prisons as it all we know.
there is a lot of survivors out here with=
NO DIRECTION, NO IDEA OF LIFE, NO FAMILY LIFE, NO PENSION, NO SAVINGS, NO HOME, NO ONE TO RELY ON, NO SUPPORT FOR ALL SURVIVORS, NO PARTNER, BROKEN MARRIAGES, BROKEN FAMILIES, STILL NO CONTACT WITH LOST FAMILIES, NO IDEAS, NO LEARNING SKILLS, NO INTEREST IN THIS LIFE, NO IDEA ON HOW TO BRING UP A FAMILY,
NO VOICE, NO WORK, DISABILITIES, LONELY, UNABLE TO MAKE DECISIONS,
ALL THIS AND MORE SURVIVORS WHO ARE IN PRISON, MENTAL INSTITUTIONS, ON THE STREETS, ALCOHOLICS, DRUGS ETC ETC,
THIS IS THE PRICE THE GOVERNMENT AND CHURCH PAID SURVIVORS.
THEY BUILT THE WORST SOCIETY ON THE PLANET.
THEY DID NOT BUILD A HEALTHY SOCIETY THEY DESTROYED A WHOLE SOCIETY THROUGH SHEER GREED AND NEGLECT AND ABUSED IT THROUGH OUT.
THE POOR TAX PAYER DID NOT KNOW THEN WHAT IT PAID FOR NEITHER DOES IT NOW.
HOW MUCH DID THAT SCUM PAY OF TAX PAYERS MONEY FOR ONE TRIP TO A POOR COUNTRY WHO WOULD HAVE EVEN PAID HER TO STAY. OVER 30.000 EURO JUST AS EXPENSES POCKET MONEY. TAX PAYERS MY ASS COWEN
YOU ARE A DISGRACE SIR TO IRISH PEOPLE WHO TRUSTED YOU WITH THEIR TAX.
ARE YOU GOING TO ASK THE BANKS FOR THEIR HALF OF PAY BACK TOO WHEN AND IF THE COUNTRY GETS BACK ON ITS FEET? YOU PROBABLY WILL BUT THE TAXPAYER WILL NOT SEE A CENT EITHER.
STOP USING THE TAX PAYER TO DODGE YOUR WAY OUT OF VERY BAD POLITICS.
YOU OWE THE SURVIVORS BIG TIME AND GIVE WHAT IS RIGHTLY THEIRS.
I AM VERY SURE EVERY SURVIVOR THEIR FAMILIES THEIR FRIENDS AND THEIR FAMILIES, SUPPORTERS WHO HAVE VOICED THEIR OPINIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SURVIVORS NOW THE CHURCH IS BECOMING EMPTY AS SO WILL YOUR GOVERNMENT AS YOU WILL NEVER NEVER GET ANOTHER VOTE FROM US AS YOU NEVER SUPPORTED US.
the Government should be supplementing all Redress Survivors that are on Low Income or Disability etc with weekly increases from the State to lift their incomes to the same Level as those with in Society that had the Chance at youth to gain an education and social Skills. This should be surplus to what is already on the Table. Average Professional earnings for ALL! Before everyone involved is dead at least those left.
How many got the opportunity as every one else in Society to Gain Professional Qualifications by Education?
Ken,spot on how very true.Catherine.
The Religious Orders responsible for abusing Ireland’s poorest children say they’re struggling to come up with money to help their victims. Yet investigations into their net worth paint a very different picture – that of nuns and brothers with billions’ worth of carefully sheltered assets worldwide. http://bit.ly/assets_liabilities
Irish government leaders said they expect the 18 religious orders involved in abusing children in workhouse-style schools to pay a much greater share of compensation to 14,000-15,000 State-recognised victims. Also demanded was that the secretive orders reveal the true scope of their wealth for the first time. Defence Minister Willie O’Dea said.
[QUOTE]”We have to ascertain how much they actually have. The government is adamant and determined that they will make an appropriate contribution,” [/QUOTE]
The orders have ruled out paying more compensation, even though the report found them principally to blame and guilty of far greater abuses than they admitted to in 2002.
Instead the orders have proposed unspecified contributions to a new victims’ welfare fund.
Experts on the global fight against abuse claims say the orders won’t shed light on their finances voluntarily. Reverend Thomas Doyle, an American Catholic priest who is an expert on canon law and a champion of abuse victims’ rights said:
[QUOTE]”First off, don’t trust anything they say, and be prepared to follow up the urging for voluntary donation or contribution with some form of force.” [/QUOTE]
Doyle said the Irish Detention Orders [QUOTE]”must be forced by a power greater than themselves, and that’s the courts and the Irish government, to make sure the compensation comes, even to the point of forcibly divesting them of properties”. [/QUOTE]
The order most deeply implicated in the abuse report, the Christian Brothers, was founded two centuries ago in Ireland but has spread across the globe. It has the biggest property empire and faces exposure to abuse claims ranging from the United States to Canada, Australia and Ireland.
[QUOTE]”Their assets and how they hold assets is of Byzantine complexity,” [/QUOTE]said David Wingfield, a Toronto-based lawyer who has won abuse settlements from Christian Brothers schools in Canada, from Newfoundland to British Columbia.
[QUOTE]”They have unlimited financial resources to mount litigation, and they have absolutely no shame in doing so.”[/QUOTE]
Brother Edmund Garvey, spokesman for the Christian Brothers in Ireland and the order’s former world leader, estimated that its approximately 100 schools in Ireland alone are worth euro 400 million ($560 million). Garvey said his order would try to find more funds to compensate victims, but wasn’t sure that was realistic.
[QUOTE]”At this point in time, I don’t believe we can,”[/QUOTE] – sneakily this Order also offered to deal only with one set survivors they abused as children – in effect to dismantle the flawed indemnity deal they signed up to.
A lawyer who specialises in class-action lawsuits against Catholic authorities in the United States, said the Christian Brothers often sought [QUOTE]”to disassociate themselves from particularly pregnant assets that could be given over to, or awarded, in a judgment. It’s what corporations do when they feel like they’re in trouble. The question is whether it’s lawful,” [/QUOTE]
Mary Raftery, the Irish journalist who did much to expos church abuse cover-ups in Ireland, said Christian Brothers’ leaders in Australia and Canada behaved the same way during 1990s abuse scandals in those nations as it was doing now in Ireland.
[QUOTE]”They denied the abuse, accused the victims of lying, and set about ensuring that their assets were protected from survivors and lawsuits by either creating trusts or splitting various schools and assets away from central control,”[/QUOTE]
Other Irish-founded orders exposed as serial abusers have a big footprint overseas, particularly the Sisters of Mercy nuns, who run scores of girls’ schools in Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United States.
The Sisters of Mercy also own key hospitals in Ireland.
Their nuns were identified in the Irish report as serial abusers of girls, chiefly in the form of beatings and humiliation rather than molestation. Like the Christian Brothers, they have vowed to cooperate with the Irish government – but made no commitments on providing more funds for victims.
Some victims want the government to hold a national referendum to amend Ireland’s constitution so it would permit seizures of church money and property.
– – – – – – – – – – –
From various media sources and personal and professional knowledge of the devious nature of the Detention Orders
Nomoresilence, Andrew, Rose, and anyone one else I’ve forgot. Thank you for your fighting spirit, your words. It’s nice to know we’re not alone.
We are being “Represented” by groups who never contact us or talk to us and I think we should demand to see the names of members on their list and if any financial assistance/support has been given.
Andrew, it is so nice to hear from a son of a survivor as my daughter does all my work for me e.c.t and my son and daughters lives have been deeply affected,and this should be took into account.
Also I have just got of the phone from speaking to Micheal O’Brien, who was in Hospital as we spoke, god bless him..to let him know that I am now willing to go on hunger strike with him or at least be there for him. I appreciate we’re all different but that is what I wish to do. Also, I agree with other comments suggesting we write to Government to demand we be paid immediately, and interim payments to tie us over. Like I have said before it isn’t all about the money, of course we want real justice but for some there are too many suffering and money would help. We are not getting any younger and look at us all running around like headess chickens literally begging for what we’ve earned/suffered for.
I will be writing to The caring Mr Cowen today. And that’s just the start.I will keep you updated, and Just to let you know, I respect everyone’s views..and I pray you find strength, fight and the will to go for it this last time. Think of all the years it has took just to force the Pope into giving pathetic appologies, because of the media and T.v!! not because he truly wanted to!!!!
Love and peace to you all..
Anne O’flaherty.
St josephs, Galway,-hell hole!!!!
While we are unhappy with the way things are going for us as survivors we do have opinions on how we believe we could be supported.
We have made this known to the dead ears of support groups and got nowhere, the same to the church, the government and the media.
So what do we think could help us get something out of this nightmare we are all going through.
Why not publish our thoughts here of what we expect as the kind of support we certainly do need.
If we had some kind of list of expectations we may have an idea how to please everyone openly.
EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO A VOICE NOT A VOTE ON WHAT OTHERS THINK WE NEED.
there are so many areas in every survivor’s life that needs addressing, so we must say and make known these areas.
even if it be anonymous for now.
so every survivor can respect each others needs and
STOP FIGHTING AMONGST OURSELVES. If THESE GROUPS HAVE NEEDS NOT GREEDS THEN LET THEM PUBLISH THEM FOR THEMSELVES OUR BUSINESS IS NOT THEIRS. THEY CAN MIND THEIR OWN JUST AS WE DO.
i only hope this idea goes down well as i do not mean to offend anyone. regards Robert.
This is the way I see it all….
The church and the government will never do there utmost to give to us what we want, need and deserve because it will cost them too much MONEY.
As MONEY means POWER which means CONTROL, theses so called hierarchy do not want too lose there MONEY as they will lose POWER and therefore lose CONTROL.
The thing is, the MAJORITY of people are still going to mass, they are still putting money into the church. The church and government see this. They say, “don’t worry as the majority of people seem to be OK with all that has happened. It is only the minority of people that are causing a stir. As long as we still have the majority of people going to mass, all is fine.”
What I am trying to get to here is that we need to stand together as a Nation, as a Civilization, really show them how we really feel,
and
BOYCOTT MASS….. BOYCOTT THE CHURCH…. PROTEST OUT SIDE OF THE CHURCH…..
and send a real message to the pope that,
……WE THE PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER……
The only way to get the church to really listen is for a
very very well said ken and corneillius there are a lot of good people writing to a good man here ON THIS SITE the media should take note of a lot of what is here. never mind the rubbish about bishops and the pope’s feelings
IT IS OUR FEELINGS THAT MATTER.
Hi paddy would it not be better or is it to simple for the high and mighty government to ask we the survivors what we want? for a change not these so called people who speak for us with out asking our opinion now we have a voice and are not longer children our wishes and needs should be respected and may I say not before time we are fed up in the UK of people speaking so called for us ! its all still too controlled by those who are now the new bullies ! forget the hunger strike we should all get off our backsides and write individually to the government and tell the buggers what we want and need before we are all dead and gone so we are writing today Bernadette Cook and Doris Lloyd who will follow and the more the merrier .
Portia, spot on!
Ken, you make a very good point; the effects of unresolved trauma get passed down from generation to generation, consciously and unconsciously. Thus the costs to Society are never ending.
The unwillingness of Governments and Institutions to acknowledge the work of people like Alice Miller, John Holt, James Prescott, Paddy (here), Kevin Annett and many many others who have shown this to be the case is part unconscious defence (as those adults are themselves trauma based psychologically) and part conscious – because to face the facts would mean dissolving Power over others as a Societal paradigm.
We, the survivors, are speaking up, telling our stories, sharing our insights, and given the resistance, which is fierce and violent in many cases, we are amongst the bravest and best spirited people in our Society. If those who need to listen could, they would have only healing to gain.
Thus we press on, and we will not stop our work.
The future of all children, indeed of Society itself is at stake.
To Not Silenced Any More,
If you know of the people who have photos of the children from Goldenbridge in the 1940/50 why don’t you give their names . I was in Goldenbridge from 1935/1950 and I would like any photos of me . I am 77 years old and do not have any pictures of my childhood.as I do not belong to any group in Ireland and if they are held by any of the so called group in Ireland I would like these photos returned to me
May Cornish
Hi, I am a son of a survivor. In my opinion it is not just the survivors that suffer but us the CHILDREN, WE ALSO SUFFER.
As most of survivors were mentally, physical, emotional and sexually abused as a child. Not to mention never receive adequate education. It is devastating to say that this infliction will cause problems for generations to come. And no 60,000euro (which most received from the redress) will help in putting our lives back to normal.
When you really think about it, even the Moneys that Mr Justice Ryan had stated, would not be close to what we deserve.
MY PERSONAL LIFE, MY SOCIAL LIFE, MY FAMILY LIFE, MY CAREER LIFE, was and still is effected by this infliction caused by the so called holy people
And I can assure you that MY LIFE alone is worth a lot more than 400,000euro.
And I am sure i speak on behalf of most if not all of the children of survivors.
Ask yourself what would JESUS say if he was alive today…. he would say do everything in his power to help these people….EVERYTHING.
to emer the answer is no way
WE THE SURVIVORS DESERVE TO BE HEARD
AND SUPPORTED THROUGH THIS TURMOIL OF YET AGAIN ABUSE.
WE ARE ALL CAUGHT UP IN SOME KIND OF WHIRLWIND BLOWING US AROUND AND AROUND IN CIRCLES ITS A DISGRACE AS YOU SAID KIND REGARDS ROBERT
UNITY IS WHAT IS NEEDED, NO ONE IS ABOVE ANYONE, EMER. THANKS AGAIN
The problem, I feel, is that Power is misunderstood by many people. Child abuse of any kind is about Power. It is an expression of Power over the child exercised against the child’s best interests.
And the rationalisation of Power most often involves the rationalisation of abuse. As we see.
“Give me the child until he’s 7, and I will show you the man!” “Spare the rod, spoilt the child!”
The Wrath of God.
Representatives who wield decision making powers, at any level, are no longer spokespersons. They step into the Power arena, and are immediately corrupted. Power corrupts because it is power.
The best people to decide as to how to help those who have survived abuse to recover are those who have survived abuse, and especially those who have examined the nexus of their situation and experience in depth.
The worst people to decide how to help those who have survived abuse is those who wield Power.
That any survivors representatives groups are ‘divided’ says much about those who lead those groups.
Oh Paddy, we feel so so confused. I’m sick to death of it and am seriously thinking of doing the hunger strike. If only anyone could help me contact Michael O’Brien?? I’m deadly serious. It’s an injustice, over and over again.
Is it possible to contact our legal reps from the redress to claim what’s ours.
Patrick, thank you for your words and number, is it ok to contact you this evening?.
Something has got to be done now.
Regards, Anne.
Paddy, thanks for putting my mind at rest and you know how much we appreciate your site.
For one self-appointed ‘representative’ to excoriate an elected official of the State is an insult to democracy – and to play a party political card to boot! All the time I was in Ferrhyhouse this same political party was in power – and they KNEW of the disgusting and dangerous conditions in which us children were forced to live …. AND DIE. And this political party read a secret report from the Dept. of Health which stated that the death of my friend was due to the disgusting nature of the living conditions in Ferryhouse. Michael O’Brien, ex-mayor of Clonmel is 20 years older than me.
It’s nothing to do with comfort to support democracy and transparency. Brian Cowen has a mandate. He’s stood for election and has been elected. And he and his Government have been able to run rings around us because certain people were more interested in self-appointments and self-publicity. We’ve had enough of that.
Survivors own this process – or should own it, but up to the ‘walkout’ by Mr O’Brien and Mr. Kelly ‘taking the pledge’ not to meet the elected officials of the State our ownership was in doubt. While these people were in this process survivors were treated as a joke … that should change now and I hope it does. Survivors are tired of ‘stunts’, secret meetings, false promises and self-publicists.
It may come as surprise folks but Mr Kelly brings to mind a quote from yer man in England, Shakespeare, yep,the bard himself:
“Me thinks he doth protest too much”
Robert
By the way
People filling out the forms!!
These forms were applications to the REDRESS BOARD…..Nothing to do with becoming a Member of any group.
And don’t get me started on that disasterous meeting with The “KING” down in Liberty Hall. An out and out Disgrace. Are yous all going to sit back and let this crowd of gobshites lead you.well are you?
“hi emer thanks for your input forgive my ignorance but mandate?
these people were recommended to us on arrival back in Ireland we never knew better, we thought they were to support us through everything but it took a while, years to realize we are still fighting our own battles just as they are fighting to keep in their jobs keeping us quiet by making deals behind our backs”
ROBERT
These so called Group Leaders are nothing short of a DISGRACE. I recently heard that one of them compliments of the government have a country house in Ireland. Survivors go to this country house. Will have to get more on that one and will post, also the location. You would be surprised who runs/owns it. Very Surprised. As for a Mandate. Listen Robert I know for a fact that one group down the south OK Right of Place, have members that are NOT MEMBERS. To explain this Robert, you will have to go back some years. right of Place went to the USA and had a meeting to tell the survivors (hate that word) about the Redress Board. People filled out the forms and walla they BECAME MEMBERS OF RIGHT OF PLACE> I know this for a fact. I wrote to the NEW LEADER Mr. Heaply, who Surprise is now a Board Member of the education Finance Board to boot and told him to take this persons name OFF HIS MEMBERSHIP LIST. The person has NOT and WILL NOT be a Member. The Person never got a VOTE on anythting and the person is now very upset that this crowd has this persons private information. Mr. Heaply to this day has not replied. Group Leaders without A MANDATE is a bit like an ERUPTING VOLCANO, if you get my gist.
Robert sorry about some of me spelling. Paddy will you fix that.
Christine Buckley, We must be able to see written evidence of all the names on your list ( Up On This Site) that you say you represent for your Fat FUNDING, my name better NOT be on it. Same goes for Mick Waters List , and Sally Mulready or Tom Hayes or those in Cork or anywhere else, I for one don’t and have not used nor had any help from any of these, as for a trust fund ?????no doubt Christine West (Mrs Buckley will have her nose in that direction for her own benefit. Also the Greedy Lawyers. Forget Trust funds ,>Pay all Survivors the proper Compensation we all deserve into our own bank accounts.We are not the silenced children anymore . and by the way those who were later in Goldenbridge in the middle sixties and seventies who hoard all the Old photos of older survivors from the 1940’s and 1950’s you should be ashamed of yourselves for NOT having copies done and making sure copies are sent to each survivor so they can see they were a child once. You were asked to do this over the years Yet you choose to stay silent Those photos DON’T belong to YOU ,Don’t be Selfish. I know who it is who has them.Do you want your name put up on here.???Lets face it None of the so called self appointed Group leaders give a sh*** about other survivors and never have. Who has been paying their wages all these years? The Government? The Dept of Education ?The Religious ?the very people we are all trying to get Justice from. GREAT EH.I have talked to someone who works at the European Court of Human Rights ,The Redress should have happened After the RYAN report was published They way they carried that out is a bit like passing a sentence on a person before they had been to court.A Rat has been smelt
paddydoyle.com has to stay bravo Paddy for allowing survivors this opportunity to express their feelings.
it’s the only place we can have a say and those grumpy groupies know it far too well.
some groups ignore us anyway they think they know it all.
they should focus on their own experiences in the schools and stop interfering with other peoples lives.
I AM SO THANKFUL TO THE FIRST VOICES WHO SPOKE OUT ABOUT THE ABUSES THAT HAPPENED TO THEM.
BUT WHO CHOSE THESE GROUPS TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR US.
with all the names and info now gathered up in the reports and redress this government and religious orders have a decision to make. either give the lives back to the people or destroy them even more by trusting groups with funds that belong to each and every single survivor.
this government and religious orders know how we suffered ( so they say publicly ) they have all our names and know each and everyone’s story.
SO THEN WHAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE ?
DO WE ALL NEED A LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE? TO FIGHT IN THE EUROPEAN COURT FOR JUSTICE?
Veronica. What seems to have escaped so many people is that these so called ‘representative groups’ are self appointed, they don’t have a mandate of any sort and just “do their own thing”. There seems to be an assumption among them that the rest of us all all stupid and that if they don’t work on our behalf then we’ll be thrown to the wolves. I don’t buy it now, I never bought into it. As for a trust fund, it’s becoming increasingly obvious that the people most in favour of trust funds are those that already hold control over people who’ve been abused while in the care of religious orders. The last thing we need now in my view is a trust fund managed by the many, many people that write to this site and who don’t trust or want any of the current batch or ‘representatives’ to represent any of us. Paddy.
Why do we need these representatives to speak on our behalf. I have asked for help many times in the past and it always fell on deaf ears. To think of all the money that was sent over to the support groups I and many others I know never received any support at all. As far as trust funds are concerned what a load of croc! They are supposed to be about TRUST and they don’t know the meaning of the word. I am totally against any kind of trust fund, we would be baffled with more paperwork and red tape and would not bother trying to make a claim and it would only be turned down as that is what currently happens. I hope this can be sorted in a way that us survivors can feel some kind of lasting peace.
If Mr. O’Brien wants to go on a hunger strike, that’s his prerogative. I don’t want to see anyone damage themselves by starvation. I’ve no idea what would happen if someone went on hunger strike and died. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. Paddy.
If you can email me the names of anyone that is being abusive to you, I give you a personal guarantee to block them from writing to this site. Paddy.
Thanks David. The first thing I’d say is that these so called group leaders have no mandate at all and struggle to find ‘members’. Many are what I call media junkies, some have been seen chasing TV cameras down streets or following photographers, journalists to make their views known without even consulting with people like you and me. Some are so arrogant as to suggest that neither you, me or many hundreds and even thousands of others don’t know what we want so they’ll go and get it for us, they even speak for us without asking us if we want them as spokespersons. Frankly, it’s time these people copped on that all ‘survivors’ are not stupid, that we can think for ourselves and we know what we want.
One such leader, John Kelly has said that he’s having nothing more to do with the government. The amount of mail that came into me saying that this was a blessing, is amazing. There are other group leaders that people want out of the way as well. However these esteemed people are not for budging, ego’s take pride of place.
This website is a thorn in their side and a pain in their rear end. The great leaders that profess to speak for all survivors of abuse don’t even bid me the time of day. Fear not, I don’t lose a nights sleep over this.
Paddydoyle.com is staying put. It’s been there ten years and if I live long enough it will be there for another ten, maybe twenty. Support from people such as yourself is always welcome and much appreciated. Onward and upward. Paddy.
Like you Rose, I’ve serious reservations about a trust fund. You’d be surprised at some so called survivor representative groups that are insisting on a trust fund. I for one, question their motivation – this is about control. More control. Paddy.
What use is a trust fund. who will really benefit from this.? Most survivors, VICTIMS, surely wont. Managed by the state, what an utter farce.
Paddy I personally thank you for this site as it is the closest we have to a voice. Thanks Paddy for that.
You are so right about money and churches but there are a lot of families who struggle to make ends meet and have no back up support.
it is not the money but it is not about the groupies either.
its about the voice of survivors individually and all this energy needs to be directed to those in power to ACTUALLY HELP SURVIVORS WHO ARE IN GREAT NEED.
HOW MANY FOUND A HOME ON THE REDRESS WHO WERE HOMELESS
IF YOU WERE SACKED FROM A JOB UNFAIRLY YOU WOULD BE EXPECTED TO CLAIM FOR DAMAGES AND A LOT OF THESE CASES GOT FAR MORE THAN THOSE WHO’S WHOLE LIVES HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BEFORE THEY COULD EVEN GET A JOB
THAT IS IF THEY WERE OFFERED A JOB DUE TO THE CV BEING A MESS BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT THEIR FAULT.
so no its not just about money or the churches ITS ABOUT HOW TO SURVIVE IN THIS COMPETITIVE WORLD WHERE WE WERE LAST TO THE START-UP LINE NEVER MIND THE FINISH WE MAY NEVER GET THERE.
It seems to me that some so-called leaders of survivors groups appear to presume what they think survivors of institutional abuse want or don’t want. Unfortunately the media have empowered them with a voice as if speaking for all survivors. It is far from the truth in many aspects. All survivors are individuals and we have our own thinking-caps but if any survivor dares to have an opinion that differs from leaders they are then given a look of disapproval and frowned upon for not falling into line. Indeed I have noticed that some leaders are so sanctimonious and appear to have a air of smugness about them.
If a leader, even to the point of displaying despotism, doesn’t want to have anything more to do with the government but instead would rather have dealings with the church then that is his/her prerogative, it certainly does not mean that we all feel the same way. This includes the hungry strike planned by Michael O’Brien. It is his decision but we shouldn’t be made to feel guilty for not supporting his course of action.
We all have our own voices (unfortunately we are not all allocated the same platform as some) and this website at least allows us the opportunity to state how we feel. So Paddy don’t even think about shutting your website down. It serves a purpose for many survivors who don’t know what is going on in Ireland and the latest updates with government, church etc. There is the old adage for whatever you think, say or suggest, “your damned if you do and your damned if you don’t.” Keep up the good work.
Hello Paddy. Please excuse me using your site for a personal message. Would the people with whom I have had no contact from, please remove my name from their lists as I think I have rights to my own name its very abusive, on the part of these groups, to them i am just a number, its time that stooped.
I for one would go on hunger strike..if Mr. O’Brien is willing I will stand stand with him..there are some survivors thinking of going back to there legal team that went to The Redress Board on their behalf..and take up a new case to get what they should have been given..not sure what your take is on that Paddy..my last feeling on this is…I just wonder what would happen if someone went on hunger strike and died..would it be worth it..my take on it is..it would show up who the real men and woman are from the takers that just talk..to Ann..my numbers 0863363992..
One member of a so called leading group of survivors has informed the media that he and his organisation were having nothing more to do with the Government, they would in future deal with the church and the religious and all of this without a mandate to speak for people who were abused while in institutional care. If that’s not arrogance of the first degree, then I don’t know what is. Paddy.
I was informed as were others attending a meeting with the Taoiseach and his Ministers that if we were allowed into that meeting various so called representative groups would walk out. WHY?
“All this talk about money and churches is missing the point”. I totally agree. In fact at a meeting with the Taoiseach and most of his front bench, I made the point about money being trumpeted by many people as though it were a cure of all ills. It isn’t and it never will be. Paddy
I fail to see why you should question whether I’m as straight as I am. I’ve never suggested, implied or otherwise, that I was either straight or crooked for that matter. What Barry Clifford did with what you refer to as his “Little March” is his business and I shouldn’t be expected to answer for him. I won’t answer for him anymore than I would presume to answer or speak on behalf of anyone else. If you feel ‘odd’ about having anything to do with me, might I respectfully suggest you search around for another website where you might find someone more trusting.
Whoever decides to go on a hunger strike has to be and is their decision. I will not be forced into supporting anything that I’m not comfortable with. If I pull this website down the reality is that you and many others will not have another to turn to. Paddy.
Robert, Seanie..anyone else who’s interested in supporting, or even going on hunger strike outside the Dail..please contact me on 07895479387
Now I’m ready to fight, I’m dead already.
Anne O’Flaherty.
Hmmm.. I’m slowly picking up on certain things. Not too bright with the education I received you see, but I think those who favour Brian Cowen must be comfortable, financially that is, and it stinks.
Paddy, I hope from the bottom of my heart, your are as straight as you say you are?!?!..no disrespect but this isn’t right.
Christine Buckley is as sly as they come. And well paid of. I’m starting to think who else is well paid of too?!?!
Barry Clifford tried his best with his little march he tried with, and right up until the end Paddy you two were on the same page?..then nothing! no support advertising his march, as a friend would do, survivor to survivor?.. we respect you Paddy for all the good stuff you do, but this is feeling odd.
I agree with you Patrick. We will be dead before this is sorted just as they wanted, and yet there’s alot of survivors lining their pockets and a lot shadier than we know.
Micheal O’Brien I have all the respect for in the world. He is 77 and willing to go on hunger strike! for us! For our money! Lets support this man. And I hope you will too Paddy, with your very informative website you have running. This would help.
Anne O’Flhaerty
hi emer thanks for your input forgive my ignorance but mandate?
these people were recommended to us on arrival back in ireland we never knew better, we thought they were to support us through everything but it took a while, years to realize we are still fighting our own battles just as they are fighting to keep in their jobs keeping us quiet by making deals behind our backs.
THE SO CALLED SUPPORT WE HAVE
NOT RECEIVED AS OF YET TEN YEARS DOWN THE LINE.
WE HEAR DECISIONS BEING MADE FOR US SO CALLED MEMBERS BUT WE HAVE HAD NO IDEA WHAT WE WERE BEING REPRESENTED FOR OR HOW WHERE WHEN WHY AND WHO IS BEING REPRESENTED.
WE WHO STRUGGLE THROUGH LIFE HAVE BEEN SUCKERED INTO BELIEVING THIS CERTAIN GROUP IN CORK IS A SUPPORT GROUP.
NOW WE HAVE NO ONE.
FOUR SURVIVORS WERE FORCED TO LIVE IN A HOUSE ACROSS THE ROAD, IF YOU DID NOT, YOU HAD TO LEAVE THEIR BED AND BREAKFAST.
THERE WAS THIS SENSE OF FEAR OF BEING KICKED OUT OF THE SUPPORT GROUP THE ONLY THING WE HAD AT THE TIME.
I WAS TO MOVE INTO AN APARTMENT IN THEIR BUILDING AND ON THE DAY OF REMOVALS THE LEADER SAID I COULD NOT MOVE IN NOW AS THE COMMITTEE VOTED AGAINST IT AS THEY WERE FOR REPATRIATION AND THAT THREE WERE TO BE KEPT FOR THE COUNCIL FOR THE HOMELESS.
I WAS TO BE REPATRIATED AT THE TIME SO WHAT WAS GOING ON I HAVE NO IDEA.
THEY HAVE LIED THROUGH THEIR TEETH.
THEN TWO YEARS LATER I WAS TOLD BY A LADY I WAS TO GO AND VISIT A HOME WITH CLUID HOUSING AND WAS TO BE TAKEN BY A MEMBER OF STAFF TO SEE IT I WAS SO EXCITED BUT WHAT I DID NOT KNOW HE WAS GOING FOR IT TOO AND HE GOT IT. I WAS LED TO BELIEVE HE WAS TAKEN ME TO VIEW IT AS A MEMBER OF STAFF AS I WAS HERE LONGER AND HOMELESS.
THIS SUPPORT GROUP PLAYS CLEVER WITH WORDS TO COVER AND SUPPORT THEIR OWN BACKS.
I NEVER WANTED TO MENTION THIS HERE BUT I FEEL I HAVE TO AS THESE KIND OF RUN GROUPS ARE DESTROYING SURVIVORS NOT SUPPORTING THEM AT ALL.
DO WHAT THEY SAY OR ELSE.
None of what I have written absolves any adult who has caused harm to any child.
What’s wrong with a referendum, and what’s these people doing our talking for .I don’t think that a women who I have had no contact with in all these years could know my needs. Her own needs have been satisfied,and the rest is steam .I do not want to feel dominated . I want to use my voice.
I live in London, and have not been following events in detail, so I may be off the mark. This is what I feel.
All this talk of ‘money’ by Churches and Governments is missing the point. There is something fundamentally wrong in the way that this issue has been ‘managed’ thus far, almost as a ‘damage limitation’ exercise.
The first need for survivors, individually and collectively, is an acknowledgement that the symptoms of distress I/we experienced and still experience is not that there’s something ‘wrong’ with me/us; what is required is a recognition that they are the signs of a Societal problem, that there was and remains a serious problem in how children are treated and, given the circumstances, our ‘symptoms’ are not at all surprising.
We, the survivors, are not the problem.
We are not to be ‘fixed’.
We need understanding, we absolutely deserve empathy, we need support in coming to terms with our lived experience and we need to feel and sense strongly that those in Government, and within the Church, and throughout Society, comprehend the pain we feel, the damage caused to us and that they ‘get it’ with regard to what a child in those circumstances really goes through.
And with that in mind will leave no stone unturned in their efforts to end these cycles of pain and abuse.
The way in which Governments have historically ignored the work of researhcers and writers such as Alice Miller, John Holt, Joan Stiles, James Prescott, John Taylor Gatto, have stifled the calls of survivors of Institutional abuse, have sidelined the work of Paddy Doyle, Kevin Annett and many other child advocates reveals either a dysfunctional myopia or an intent to maintain those systemic patterns of adverse power relationships.
Either way, their defensiveness does nothing to promote a wider understanding of abuse and cycles of trauma behaviours that are transmitted, generation after generation, by not being examined in detail, in not being fully acknowledged, never mind fully resolved.
I want to say this: that scape goating a few perpetrators in public is not enough.
I want more than anything else to know that the abuse STOPS. That future generations of children are afforded the full respect they each deserve for their innate qualities as natural human beings, by all sectors of Society.
Parents need help in terms of understanding the dynamics of mistreatment, the natural ways of relating to children without the use of power. They need help in understanding how past forgotten experiences can emerge again as they parent their own children. The youth need help in learning about parenting BEFORE they become parents. Parenting deserves the FULL SUPPORT of Government more than Banks, Corporations or Religious Institutions.
Why worry.None of these people have a Mandate , until they show you a Mandate they do not represent any of you
does anyone know of a way we can obtain the right justice for ALL SURVIVORS while the government are making these deals with the religious orders and their payed support groups. and then pocketing the so called tax payers money to pay for the utter mess they made of the country.
the tax payer paid the price for those schools before and the money was not used for us as children.
the same now as before, it will never reach us today either.
we need to get our voice and make it known.
there must be a way for every survivor to be heard and understood and dealt with rightly according to their personal needs.
no group is big enough to do this.
i say this to some group self chosen leaders get back in touch with your own experiences as what you went through and stop riding over other people. we have our stories too and we have to live them every single day of our lives.
get off the horse and come back down to our level.
make a stand for EVERY opinion NOT JUST YOUR OWN.
I just knew there was something very wrong with that information Paddy. I just wanted to see it put right so people know you speak for the interest of all survivors besides yourself well done Paddy Doyle and thanks for the swift honest reply Paddy.
Our voice has been forced from us once again and given to a group in Cork under the same religious umbrella.
This has broken my heart if only survivors out there really knew how cruel this group has been in the past.
no there is no justice in Ireland for its people.
We are being dictated to once again and paying another price for it.
Message to Eric. Well said Eric but we are alone out here, alone without a voice,silenced, ignored, unwanted, thrown to the lions who if we are lucky we might survive.
It’s like throwing a lifebelt over board with thousands of people drowning in rough waters. only the favourites will get lucky
I don’t know where Patsy McGarry got the impression that I was pleased with the meeting. Only one of the people mentioned in your mail actually spoke to me and that person was Sally Mulready. I will be getting in touch with Patsy McGarry to put the record straight about that meeting. Paddy.
So Paddy what do you think? we have known you to be true to the survivors, were you pleased Paddy?
It says you were pleased with the meeting along side with Noel Barry the right of place, Mick Waters, and Sally Mulready and Christine Buckley.
Please help us who have not been invited there.
Is there a way in which a petition could be set up to give people who have been through the Redress Board process to have their say in how the monies should be dealt with, as someone who has been through the Redress Board scheme I would like to be able to express a view . The very thought that the state is to be involved in setting up a fund sends shutters down my spine, after all wasn’t the state complicit in the cover up. I don’t need an education, when I was suppose to get one all I got was sexual, physical and psychological abuse and now the state feels fit to offer me one at the age of 58. No thanks as I already been abused by both the state and the church I feel that I don’t want to go back for more. Let us all come out the shadows, stand up proud and demand our rights as free people of this republic. We did it in Dublin last year, let us march once again and protest our right to be heard because I feel that once again we been forced to hide away again. We have nothing to be ashamed of quite the reverse it is the state and the church who should be ashamed of themselves.
Bitterly disappointing for so called representatives to behave like this .
Ah well what’s new!!!!
A sad day for survivor ‘representative’ this if Mr Kelly is leaving the stage. Ever since he first took up the cudgels to oppose Justice Laffoy as she gave a solid foundation to the Child Abuse Commission and notwithstanding her departure he further took up arms against Judge Ryan who completed the Commission’s work and published the Ryan Report to universal shock and disgust. Not satisfied with fighting the Commission on one front Mr Kelly also arrayed himself in the boiling sea of the Redress Board.
Solid and steadfast in his convictions he took up the cause of Survivors on publication of the Ryan Report calling it both a ‘complete and utter whitewash’ and a ‘vindication of Survivors’
And now he is to leave the stage altogether.
The King is dead, long live the King.
I hear a meeting is being organised to elect a new Dear Leader – it’s to be held in the Peacock Theatre – pickets notwithstanding or with standing room only, whatever!
But that’s all in the future, what we must do now is organise some kind of event to mark the passing of the Dear Leader. For myself I’ll be in Benny Brady’s downing a couple of shandys and a side-order of McCormick’s Own Beef Sausages with mashed potatoes and a few onions. All are welcome.
I suppose the next time I see Mr Kelly (our Former Dear Leader) will be from the back of a truck selling shelled fruits … the fruits of his imagination.
– – – – – –
As to the calling of the Taoiseach a ‘gobshite/thief/cheat’ by one ‘representative’, that’s completely out of order as the Taoiseach was well briefed, spoke well and only his innate decency prevented him from responding in kind. I’m thankful that the Taoiseach and the other Ministers present at all the meetings can find time to treat us with decency and dignity. And I know they have to balance all things for the common good and for the good of Survivors. Considering the devastating Ryan Report I just wouldn’t fancy their job.
And as for one ‘representative’ playing the Fianna Fail card I think that was disgraceful and completely out of touch – we don’t want any kind of sneaky deal, cobbled together in smoky rooms, or the incense whiffed rooms of Maynooth; We want all things about us out in the open – in the daylight. NOTHING ABOUT US WITHOUT US.
It seems to me the government won had has all the groups divided….I for one go with John Kelly and Mr O’ Brien..they could of gave each survivor extra cash and let this be over, but now the hurt goes on..they can set up all the little trust funds they like ..we’ll all be dead by the time its sorted out..sad day